The Antichristian Phenomenon
Children, God and Death
Posted by: BlueLinchpin in Religion, tags: atheism, catholic, Christian, God, Religion
- Image by Garry’ via Flickr
Atheists and other non-theists/non-Christians across the blogosphere are struggling with a difficult question: what do you tell a child about God and religion? And now, a particular and even more difficult question: what do you tell a young child dealing with death?
Friendly Atheist pointed to this dilemma, with his post on the subject (you can see my response to his post and to the general question below), and a link to an article in which a writer talks about a friend who brings up the question of children and death. He writes:
My colleague Margaret Watson warnend me against filling Zoe’s young head with Godless thoughts. Margaret’s dad died when she was nine, and her faith was a great comfort for her, because she could believe that he was waiting for her in heaven. “And, being Catholic,” she said, “It meant that there was still someone I could call Father.” I can’t argue with that. You’d have to be a brutally militant atheist to tell an orphaned child that we die and that’s it.
So what do you tell a child about God and death? Do you treat it like Santa, and risk turning them into a theist? Do you let them figure it out on their own? Do you answer with brutal honesty?
I’d like to offer my own answers, as well as invite the other writers here to answer them, in this post.
Blue Linchpin: I think telling a child a lie to make them feel better will do nothing but cause more grief later on. It’s better for a child to learn to deal with death and grief early, instead of lying and delaying the inevitable. It will only result in the child losing trust in their parents and adults, and having to deal with the loss anyways. I don’t think refusing to lie to a child and cause more pain later on is horrible and militant atheism. What’s the best solution? Honesty, I think. “I don’t know” is probably the best answer, and letting the child know that this is how life works but that their parent WILL continue to live on in certain ways: if I were a parent trying to explain this, I would tell them that the dead parent has become a part of everything within the world, from the air to the trees to the ground, and that they continue to live on in this way, and be with us, even if we can’t see them. This would probably instill respect for the world and all things while comforting them and allowing them to deal with death realistically. Neither is it a lie: naturally our bodies recycle and become a part of the world, though unfortunately this is slowed thanks to pointless burial traditions.
Db0: A child does not need to be told fairy tales to pacify it and it’s doubtful that having the fairytale of heaven will do much to help this going. If the concept of heaven was enough to avoid sadness, you wouldn’t see all the people in religious funerals crying their soul out, but rather, they would be celebrating their brothers and sisters going to “a better place”. There’s also the fact that the child might grow even more sad if they think their loved ones might go to Hell instead. Just imagine if the child later on in life learned of a “mortal sin” which is certain to take you to hell and that their loved one used to do?
Personally I would take an Epicurean view on this subject. You can expain easily that all humans eventually cease to live, one way or another. But that should not necessarily be a matter of sadness. As long as one’s life has been good, then they have already been rewarded by the mere act of living. And if their life has not been good, then at least this unpleasant existence has ceased for them.
We, the ones that remain, can always keep them alive in our memory and remember and enjoy the good times we used to have. Being sad about the good time we may have had in the future is nothing more than self-punishment.
Waldheri
It’s a hard question of course, and one that I think has been an ally to feel-good superstition for as long as human history. One answered in countless ways to ease the grief of family and friends. I don’t see any reason to infatuate in the modern religious notions associated with death, or even any good reason to ease the grief of death. Death <b>is</b> the end, and should not be downplayed to something less bad, or imagined as only a part of existence. People say death is a part of life. It isn’t, it is the end of it, it’s opposite. Some superstitions, including Christianity’s, make death almost something to look forward to – the perfection of heaven as opposed to this flawed physical world. Not a very good thing at all, something that can even make people blow themselves up given enough false promises. No, death is bad and we should all realise it. Even if life isn’t always rewarding, it trumps the emptiness of death. Existence here and now is all we have, and we should make the best of it. Only because of our actions in human life we have a chance that the idea of us will be immortal. When person X dies and a child asks “Where has X gone?” I can only answer “Away. X does not exist outside of us anymore. X only exists in our memory of X. Even though we will never make new memories of X again, X will remain a part of us.” It is the best thing we can offer as a comfort for the loss of somebody.
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December 17th, 2008 at 1:32 am - Edit
You don't tell them anything.
Mommy what happens when you die?
Well Timmy, not much.
I was left to my own devices. I remember as clear as day thinking about death. I was probably 8… I remember that I decided I should be cremated just in case our brains still stay a little bit alive, and the thought of being in a casket all alone sounded lonely. I was by no means scared or shaken. I never actually asked my parents about it. (we didn't go to church) I'd seen plenty of dead animals … I got it.
But GIVE kids a reason to be scared and to think they NEED comfort, then yeah, reap what you sow.
December 17th, 2008 at 1:50 am - Edit
While of course that's probably true, that seems a bit too cruel when it comes to a child who's lost a parent.
December 17th, 2008 at 5:36 am - Edit
I have added my own take on this below yours Blue.
Btw, I removed the truckload of wikipedia links you had. We don't really need to explain what "God" is do we?
December 17th, 2008 at 7:12 am - Edit
I had Wikipedia links? o_o
December 17th, 2008 at 7:28 am - Edit
Yeah, you probably clicked on the buttons that were provided by Zemanta just below the writing area. There create links of the appropriate words in your text (so you can easily link to various concepts or company websites or imdb pages for movies etc). You must have thought you were selecting tags, which are a bit lower
December 19th, 2008 at 2:16 am - Edit
I edited in my reply.
December 23rd, 2008 at 9:35 am - Edit
I don't see how a lie can EVER solve anything. it will only make things worse. By telling the lie of heaven you will be condemning the child to mental enslavement by a false and harmful doctrine. People need to get on their own in life, fighting for their desires, not sitting on their knees their whole life and waiting to die to go to heaven.
Also, do you realize the hypocrisy behind it all ? "It was god's will", they say ! "He's with god now" they also say. "he went to a better place", they add. I'm sure that even the most die-hard christian would rather have that loved one with them, on earth, instead of "with god, in a better place".
As for answering the question of this topic: well, what I would tell a child is that I don't know what happens after death, as no evidence has ever been found to support any idea. Later on, when a child grows and develops some mature thinking, he can be challenged with the idea that death is probably the end.
January 3rd, 2009 at 1:38 am - Edit
Well.. and here i'll disagree again. Becouse death is not the absence of life, it is by definition the end of it. So it is not the absence of life what gives value to life. The value of life lies in its finiteness, and are the two moments in the life of a person wich define this finiteness: birth and death. And i'm not saying here that is more valuable a longer, or a shorter life, only that it is valuable becouse of its finiteness.
And i will say once more, you still didn't understand my first post.
Oh… and let me remark, with the same politeness you responded to my fisrt post: If you think death is so bad, then i wander, do you live your every day in fear? Becouse the way you see things it doesn't matter how do you play out your life.. is going to end bad….
January 3rd, 2009 at 2:12 am - Edit
I do not disagree that death is the end of life, nor that life can be defined as a state of existence between birth and death. I understand why living things die. I am in no way denying it can happen at any moment and I am well aware that one day I too will die. However, I do not subscribe to the notion that if people were immortal, their lives would have no value, since that would be the logical conclusion if you accept that death is what gives value to life.
Be not as presumptuous as to know the way I see things as it doesn't even follow that I live in fear of death every day because the fact that I think death is something to be avoided. And please, write "because" properly.
January 3rd, 2009 at 3:01 am - Edit
Immortality opens a door to long discussions. I must admit i fantasized a lot about it, and tryied to visualize varoius scenarios. To point just a couple of reasons why immortality is futile:
1. In an eviroment with limited resources(limited energy, call it earth, a solar system, a galaxy, the universe if it is finite), immortality would lead to a maximum of sustainable persons, wich implies at some point no more children. At some point with a limited number of persons, all diferent types of social interactions will had been played in all possible contexts, with all the possible combinations of persons. So no more new things, no more value. Ok, some can argue that there is allways some new thing to come. But for that new thing to come, generally requires new generations, because they can see things differently, but that was rulled out by the limited resources.
2. A person can generally retain only a percentages of his memories in the long term (i'm not really sure, but i think 20% was the value). Then suposse, that somehow we could optimize that to be a 100%, and there is no more Alzheimer, and no other mental degenerative dissease. Even then, memories are stored in our brains in the structure of the neurons connections. The number of neurons is very big, yet it is finite, and then so are the posible connections between them. Following this rationalization, there will be a moment when there is no more room for new memories and from that moment on immortality has absolutely no more value, but will be a burden.
As i promissed, i pointed out just a couple. Now back to the death dilema. I only wanted to point out it is not bad, it just is. Not good, not bad, it is just natural for life to end, and in the light that i presume immortality to be futile, yes, i belive death makes life so more valuable. About being presumtuous, no, as i said i was just wandering. And by the way, i'm not a native english speaker, so thanks for the tip.
January 3rd, 2009 at 8:14 am - Edit
I want to contradict Waldheri. Death is not actually a bad thing. Death is nature's way of maintaing balance. The fact that every life will some day die, makes every moment of that life time precious. And from this perspective, death is indeed part of life.
January 3rd, 2009 at 11:43 am - Edit
If death is not a bad thing, then why not kill yourself?
January 3rd, 2009 at 12:14 pm - Edit
You are totaly missing out my point. I never said anyone should wish to die becouse death is not bad. On the contrary, i stated that death gives life value. Otherwise, why should anyone value his life, a day in his life, or a moment in it, if it were to live forever? I can see why some may wish for immortality, but i strongly belive that they wish for it becouse they know life is not endless, and want more time. But in the end if anyone, for the sake of argument, could get to be immortal he will get bored over time, probably not imediatly, but what about a hundred years later, or a thousand, or a million, and still for the rest of the eons to pass by? At that point i don't think he will still value his time of existence in the same way before he was immortal. Why would you consider death to be bad anyway?
January 3rd, 2009 at 12:31 pm - Edit
Death often comes to those who are not finished living. Death is the absence of life, of mind, which is (generally) better than no life or mind. That is why death is bad. What is so hard about that to understand? Death does not give life value, life gives life value, because how can the absence of one thing give value to that one thing? Death only functions as a motivator to do the things you want to do while you can. In immortality, you can do it whenever.
January 7th, 2009 at 2:17 am - Edit
But this is also what I peronally experienced as well when my mother died at the age of 6. I knew a little of Christianity of course, but I even to this day refuse to attend any form of funeral, they make me sad and pissed. I also remembered how angered I was when I thought of my mother being in heaven, without me?! That was the point I decided that religion is really a lot of bullshit just pissing you off and I have never looked back at Christianity ever since
I must go back to the topic of funerals though because I still clearly remember the feeling… I hate funerals, I find them to be an awful practice. Lolwut you go to the church to mourn? When I die I want to be cremented and and I want a huge party celebrating that they got to know me and that they should be happy over the time I was alive instead of mourning me over the time I am not. Yes, it might sound ideological I know, but as I said, I truly despise funerals.
January 7th, 2009 at 2:34 am - Edit
I hate to admit it Waldheri but I am a little with EvilLord666 here :p That the idea of a finite life does give life another form of value since we know there is a finite amount of time to achieve the things we wish to do in life. What motivator do we have if we can do it whenever we want? However, I don't see death as an end but rather a continuation of an endless cycle since for death and life are not necessarily dichotomonies in an absolute sense but both are very well needed to maintain the cycle of life properly.
When I was very young I too used to imagine how it would feel like to be immortal (I was as well very fascinated with vampire stories and I am and a huge elf follower too) and played with different scenarios of what you would do with your life. What we do see is what EvilLord666 said, the population would decrease as the need for a constant population is no longer as dire: the shorter the life span of a species the more offspring it can produce. I think turtles and the ilk are exceptions to this rule, but given the very hostile environments they are forced to live in not much of the offspring will survive to further the race in the next generation.
However, my issue with immortality rather lies in the problem of satisfaction: at some point you will achieve everything you want to do in life and once you've done that what else is there left for you to do? If you ask many middle-aged people who had relatively good lives they will most likely tell you they aren't so afraid to die because they did what they wanted in life and had good lives, they feel satisfied and maybe even relieved by the thought of dying so they can leave space to the next generation and making it possible for them in return to fulfill their dreams.
I think once you feel you've accomplished your major goals you see death as welcoming; the reason why many elderly might still fear death is because they are often very unhappy, they lost their partners they have lived with all their lives, they migh be sick and so on. This brings up another question whether it is actually healthy to live as long as we do. I am basing this on the idea that many elderly are often very sick and in pain; I am not sure if I want to be sick and in pain when I get old (if I ever do). While saying that not everyone turns out sick and feel extreme pain everyday many do and obviously it would be harder to appreciate your life if you need to see a doctor every few days a week.