The Antichristian Phenomenon
It is a common theme, especially in regards to the Antichristian Phenomenon, that someone will take offense at our existence, the things we say, or the behaviour of some of our members. Many times have people left shouts at our shoutbox on how we’re burning in hell or some such. At some point we even had a troll join the group, sprout some nonsense and leave it again, which meant that we couldn’t ban him (Which was eventually the reason to turn the group into member-approved entry). That’s christian integrity for you.
It’s also been a while since I posted in the “Jesus Rocks” group where they implemented a rule to stop arguments between christians and non-christians. I only joined that christian group to reply to that thread. Thanks then to Last.fm’s reply tracker, I was notified that I had a new response today.
Since I am no longer a member of that group and nor do I wish to join to discuss that there, I was getting ready to reply in IM when I thought it would be better to reply through the ACP and perhaps have some actual dialogue in the process.
What follows is the reply I received and interjected are my responses to porkchop1234′s points:
db0 the problem isnt always from us as you seem to believe.
I suggest you check my profile and look into my forum posts and you will see for yourself a member of your group namely ISos has in the past trolled past threads when it came to debate over God and religeon. Of coarse when I went to the anti christian phenomenom forum the first thing I see is a posting in the main forum heading page saying this group takes no responsibility for the actions of its members. How quaint. Then in the shoutbox of your forum i see the comment from one of your members and i quote ‘ENOUGH TALK LETS GO BURN SOME CHURCHES’
First of all, I don’t see how Isos has trolled and I find it hard to believe that he has. Please provide evidence.
Secondly. Yes we cannot be held responsible for the members of our group. We are not an organization ffs and nor are we going to be stalking our members to see who behaves (even if we wanted to). If you have a problem with someone, take it out with himself, not with his groups. Do you hold his other groups responsible for his actions as well or is the ACP just a suitable target?
Furthermore, I find it strange that you mark a loosely knit group by the actions of its members. Does that mean that I should judge Christianity by the actions of pedophile priests, wife-beating husbands and born-agains? This is Great! I didn’t realize that discrediting Christianity would be so easy.
But of course it isn’t and you know it. Just as I cannot judge christianity solely on the actions of their few bad apples, other than say that christianity does not automatically make you a better person, so it is mistaken to judge the ACP by a few members that misbehave. Especially when we have a history or attacking idiotic behavior and reliefs, even within our ranks.
With stuff like that CAN YOU REALLY BLAME US for being suspicious of you and your members? I have just joined this forum and I dont approve of this rule AT ALL. I also point out that your forum shares part of the blame. There has been ATTACKS on christian forums by some of your members Ive seen it.
I don’t blame you for being suspicious. I just couldn’t care less. However If you judge someone from what you believe his affiliations mean instead of what they really stand for, then you are plainly ignorant.
As for attacks on christian forums, once again, provide evidence and we can discuss it. This being a forum, such a task should not be difficult.
If you really want open debate I suggest you learn to control some of your membership and kick out the trolls. You have a responsibility for the actions of your members just like the owners here have when it comes to their members.
Next….these are not my words people so dont get mad at me. Im sick and tired of seeing users from the anti christian phenomenom putting up posts where at the bottom they have crap like F God F Christ etc. You want to debate us STOP insulting our God and acting stupidly and maybe we will take you seriously.
I don’t care about people’s signatures insulting your senses. I don’t generally care on anyone’s feelings being insulted as you can see on the “On Respect:” series of mine. If you are so thin skinned that a signature makes you stop talking then you’re obviously not meant for dialogue and you’re better off having another hobby. I can guarantee you that some of our member arguments can make a two-line signature look like praise to God in comparison.
Furthermore, if you want to censor anti-religious signatures, are you for censoring anti-muslim, anti-hindu and andi-nordic ones as well (Fuck Odin!)? Should we censor, say, cartoons? How about books? Is this sinking in already or should I make it more clear?
As for holding our members responsible, see my reply above.
And finally dbo I have no reservations in defending my faith whatsoever. I have done so many times since Ive joined LastFm. In one of your past posts dbo you said we dont want people to think and know the truth. One thing I will tell you right now though is that GOD IS TRUTH. You want to reject that belief then the problem is yours not mine.
There see people me and dbo are debating God. And I have no complaints about it and I CAN hold my own against him. We all can. There is nothing to fear from these people.
Right then. I’m waiting for you to take on some of the articles in here.
March 5th, 2008 at 5:42 am - Edit
There’s no way I’m joining that group just for that debate, especially if the don’t want religion discussed in a religious group. This is madness to me.
Here’s my reply both to db0 and porkchop, and that guy above him event though I doubt he’ll read it, I still want to help clear up some of these fallacies.
First the guy above:
The circular argument problem is a two way street. You think we don’t get frustrated re-explaining philosophy, free thought, disproving Satan, Creationism/ID, why we don’t have “faith”, etc. over and over?
Now to add to what db0 has said in response to porkchop, in wonderful numbered points for easy reply if this debate kicks off, which I hope it does.
1. “ISoS is a troll.”
I seriously had trouble not bursting out laughing at this. ISoS is not a troll haha! He only says what we do in more blunt, confrontational terms. We tend to flower up our debates and sugar coat our points a little so that Christians will actually attempt to listen to what we have to say. ISoS has been involved in this debate so long that he doesn’t care much whether what he says sounds good or doesn’t offend, because as bare bones, our point of view IS offensive to you, or it should be at least a little. We essentially claim that we do not believe what you do, and that your beliefs are false. We just say it much nicer.
And if anyone knows ISoS, its me.
2. “Taking responsibility for members’ actions”
Ditto with db0. Its not the group’s fault member X thinks and does this or that, its Member X. It’s called Personal Responsibility. Perhaps you should learn you some.
3. “the shoutbox”
Why would you take the shoutbox seriously? Do you honestly believe that the person who wrote that is seriously lighting up a torch right now (or then) to set fire to a building or is seriously planning on it? Most allusions to stuff like that are made tongue-in-cheek, and its high time Christians and others figured that out. The majority of these people… aren’t serious.
4. “attacks on Chrisitian forums BY OUR GROUP SPECIFICALLY”
Evidence, please. There was a time when a lot of our members were reaching out to Christian groups to attempt meet minds and learn something from each other. These were never attacks. Anyone who reads the posts by SpHaeR, Myself, db0, reaper, and the rest of us from some point last year will see that we were for the most part very reasonable and attempted to generate intelligent discourse, not troll, attack, and harass.
5. “kick out the trolls”
I would like to point out that we have NO banned members in our group statistics. NONE. This means that we are an open-minded group of individuals, not a police force or some form of regimented control system.
6. “Signatures.”
Here’s a simple solution to anyone offended by a signature. Don’t. Read. It.
Maybe your signature offends me. I don’t like the bands in it. Change it because it makes me not take you seriously.
….. oh please. Who’s signatures are these “offensive” ones anyway? I can’t really find any that fit this description while I’m browsing ACP.
7. The fact that you are using the few to incriminate the many, and misconceptions as facts.
Problem here is that you’re using perceived notions of who and what we are to discriminate against all of us. Perhaps you could look around just a bit more, and see a few Christians amongst our ranks who may not agree with us, but respect us. Two examples: Jack000lad and Chao-Z. While there are other examples, these are two self proclaimed Christians I have personally dealt with and who are also members of our group. If you want to hear what the ACP is about WITHOUT many of the surface misconceptions, talk to one of these guys to get a reasonable Christians’ point of view.
Also think about this: we have taken time to defend ourselves rationally and as fully as possible based on current knowledge so that you won’t get the wrong idea about us. Why would we do this?
March 5th, 2008 at 8:11 pm - Edit
Wow. My girlfriend just showed this to me today, this is seriously great! I think I should feel honored that I pissed this guy off this much. I’m not sure how I can be classified as a troll, considering I haven’t used Last.fm in over a month and today was the first time I perused the forums. As Anath pointed out above, there was a time when we tried to have a meeting of the minds. Frankly after about eight years of the same debate my arguments just aren’t being understood. I realized my language had too many niceties and it seemed like I was agreeing with them. I decided one last try on the last.fm forums, we gave it a whirl. I got the same backwards logic and stupid Christian rhetoric that has been thrown my way every time I tell a Christian I don’t think Jesus is a God, he’s just a man. The inevitable response “he’s both.” Seriously, is anyone else tired of hearing this? They HAVE to be tired of giving these answers. It’s the same thing everytime, everywhere I go. I’m done with it, I will attack their logic left and right if I must. I will spell out in concise language (offensive to many) why they are wrong. I will argue with them violently if necessary to get them to start using their brains. Why? I’m bored out of my mind when I decide to go on a forum. BORED. It’s not because I have some ulterior motive or “Satanic” logic… or that I’m a troll. usually I get bored about once a month. I might use a forum for two days a month, if this qualifies a person for a troll… I think they’re wrong and I’ll lay out my case and when they can’t figure out how to respond, I’ll beat that logic into them. Instead I peruse the forums and this Porkchop1234 guy is EVERYWHERE. He’s on every thread I looked at, posting like crazy, then I’m shown this and he’s complaining about me. He needs to reassess what a troll is on forums.
All I ever asked for was absolute proof, and people keep giving me Bible quotes. I ask for another source to verify, more Bible quotes. Then they get all shocked “why aren’t you being nice to us.” And start whining. Seriously, if they can’t figure that out, I’m not surprised they follow the Christian faith so blindly. I’m really not a stupid person. I have a college degree. I’ve read books on math and science, I’ve read over 200 books outside of these on various topics. Based on my conversations with people that have degrees in these fields, I apparently understood them. I read a lot of books on Theology, I feel I have a very good grasp on this topic, but I go to a Christian forum and apparently I’m over educated. Don’t get me wrong this isn’t every Christian, this is just most Christians. I’ve met about four or five in my lifetime that I could converse with on a normal level, otherwise I have to really cut back on the logic.
March 9th, 2008 at 6:33 am - Edit
Greetings everyone. Some of you already know me but most of you dont. Im the user porkchop1234 from LastFm that the following posts above refer to. In other words Im the proverbial enemy in that I am a practicing christian who has debated in the various christian forums. Lets see if with the following debate we can maybe solve a few misconceptions and/or problems that has started to rear its ugly head. Firstly a little clarification for those ignorant of how all this came about between me and db0. I have joined and currently for the time being am a member of the Jesus Rocks forum. Upon browsing some of the forum threads I ran across this post stating the following
No more non-Christian/Christian Discussions allowed
From today, August 12th, Discussions between Non-Christians and Christians aren’t allowed anymore.
This note is mainly directed at Non-Christians coming on these forums to critique Christianity and its beliefs.
But note, this is not because we fear this critique or want to remain silent about it, this forum is just not the place for such Discussions. If you have questions about Christianity and our reasons to share this belief go ahead there are a lot places on the internet to seek answers.
Thanks in Advance for respecting this rule.
I have since been messaging the forum owner and various other users about trying to change this rule for the simple fact that its probably the most stupid rule I have ever seen in my life. It very much strangles the oppertunity for free speech and a open dialogue betweeen various users without fears of being censored or banned. Some of you who read this might laugh and say so who gives a shit its just a forum. Its very serious to someone like myself for the simple reason that now it may be a forum but lets be honest censorship starts with small things and has a nasty tendency of having a domino effect. Put very bluntly I MAY NOT like what someone believes in or says but I WOULD DEFEND his/her right to always express it. To me free will and the right of free expression to ones ideas is a GOD GIVEN right and censorship of said right is a BLASPHEMY to my eyes and the sight of God. I have no other way of putting it and thats the way i choose to live my life and roll. Now with the following background information out of the way lets get to the above posts of your ACP group.
Firstly db0
db0 I AM NOT BLAMING the ACP in general. What Im saying is BOTH sides have enough blame and it has snowballed out of control. If I had judged you I wouldnt even be bothering with you. Am I not discussing this without you by posting here? Didnt you message me and basically invite me to address this problem here? Am I not here now? Does the above stupid rule really effect me in any way? No it doesnt I can still go there and debate but you and others like you CANT. This is WRONG. This is why Im here to TRY AND SEE if I can get the users in that forum fired up enough to realize censorship is WRONG. Now you have said in your above posts that you really dont care about our suspicions. YOU SHOULD CARE. Look at whats happened. Youve been completely censored on that forum and I know this doesnt sit well with you. Now about signatures.
Dude if Im talking to someone whose lets say jewish wouldnt you agree it would be in bad taste to start flashing a swastika in his face. Im NOT TELLING you to censor books cartoons Tv or anything like that what so ever. Do I go around with signatures saying fuck homos, fuck atheism, atheists are evil, or death to atheists? I DO NOT. Understand where Im coming from? If Im respecting your beliefs shouldnt you return it equally to me and those like me. Im not saying be sheep or be someones welcome matt. For all I care you can debate as aggressively as you want but theres no reason to be confrontational about it. You start angering people then nothing gets solved or done and it just becomes a huge waste of time. As for anti muslim anti hindu signatures etc as I said before I show others belefs respect so why would I do something silly and put up a anti religeous signature about some other faith. Such things are ignorant.
Finally Im NOT holding ANYONE responsible for someone elses actions neither am I telling you to become big brother and start following people around on the net. What Im saying is because of the bad actions of some bad apples (no doubt from both sides) we now have a STUPID CENSORSHIP rule and the casualty is free expression. Such things are sad to see. Oh by the way that one comment about me defending my faith and debating God etc etc that wasnt aimed at you specifically I was just grand standing trying to light a fire under some of that forums sheep so that maybe they wake up and actually start to think and help me change that rule. Sometimes a little grand standing can be a good thing.
Now to you Anath
Anath please read the following
http://www.metalunderground.com/news/details.cfm?newsid=24092
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varg_Vikernes
Until that happened I DIDNT take it seriously NOW I DO. I know you cant control what people put in the forum shoutbox but I see something like that and my blood runs cold. Anath I very much try not take those things seriously but I HAVE BEEN ON this earth longer then you have. There ARE people out there who are capable of doing that and the only reason they dont is because their scared of being caught and jailed. How can I not be scared of people like that ? Anath your a smart woman dont you agree making certain jokes in front of certain people about certain things that has happened is well for a lack of better words low class and ignorant. I CANT HELP BUT FEAR PEOPLE LIKE THAT. They terrify me theres no other word for it they TERRIFY me.
I cant help but read it. Its flapping around in front of my nose like a HUGE flag when Im reading.
Ok Im going to stop you right there. I judge someone specifically as an induvidual not because their in a certain group or at least I try not to. Please remember my above post to db0 I DO NOT blame the ACP and all its members as a whole. What Im saying is because of misunderstandings and a FEW bad apples a snowball effect has happened and the victim has been freedom of speech by censorship.
???!!!! Ok Im sorry I just for the life of me cant understand this. Someone has a diffrent world view about spiritualism !!!!! (shudder) How could I ever have thought that the whole world should think and see how I do. Anath Im not slapping at you IM NOT. Its just i dont understand that comment. I must have known 3779879497779762 induviduals over the span of my life and ALOT of them believed in a NON CHRISTIAN God or in NO GOD what so ever. I dont get insulted or offended that someone doesnt believe in what I believe in. I only get offended when someone intentionally insults my beliefs or becomes racist over my religeon or racial background. I know there are induviduals like that in the world but IM NOT one of them. Please dont lump me into that catagory.
And finally ISos
DONT BE –__–!!!! Ok a little more background about whats been happening between me and ISos. A few days ago all this came to a head and I COMPLETELY BLEW A GASKET. Thanks to a cooler head (Anath) she was able to calm us both down and we finally started talking. When we both stopped flexing internet muscles we finally started discussing things rationally. Anath THANK YOU. Now ISos Im going to post what happened and its not in any way my attempt to point a finger at you. Right now we are both cool and hopefully it stays that way. Im just posting the url so people understand what has happened thats all
http://www.last.fm/group/Christians+at+Last.FM/forum/51003/_/272898/2
ISos I am GLAD you accepted my proverbial olive branch and offered your own. THANK YOU. All that aside I SERIOUSLY OWE a innocent party a HUGE APOLOGY namely Anath. Anath I said above in my past post I didnt judge someone on the fact of the company they keep. In that instance I DID and that was very wrong. I lost my head and dragged you into this fight with ISos when you had noting to do with it. My sincerest apologies I was wrong to do that.
ISos as I said before we can just ignore one another and bad mouth one another behind each others back or we could both actually act intelligent and show one another the respect we each deserve. ISos you said you got mad because people just wouldnt answer your questions. I dont claim to have all the answers to your questions and seriously when it comes to things like God his place in the world the meaning of life etc NOBODY DOES. You wnat to talk to me about stuff like that then by all means do. I do warn you though Im VERY SURE some of my answers wont sit well with you as IM SURE some of the things you believe in WONT sit well with me. I do promise you though that is you just approach me in a non confrontational way I WILL do the same and I will tell you my mind, and i WONT judge you on your belief system if you DONT judge me on mine.
This is all I really have to say on here. Theres other things I could address but this post has already grown big enough. I addressed the major points and the problems so hopefully that will be good enough for everyone in here. Oh about the attacks on threads. Since I first registered with LastFm I have made almost 200 posts ( I know Im becoming a post whore)and belong to over 20 forums as well as browsed countless other forums.I have tried scrounging through my post history as well as browsing other forums that I can remember browsing to try and find you the proof you wanted. Your all probably going to say HA HES LYING. Believe me Im not. You can choose to believe me or not. One user that was guilty of attacks was Ungod or nogod or something like that. im telling you the truth you can choose to believe me or not its your decision.
Bless \m/
March 9th, 2008 at 3:52 pm - Edit
Alright, I’ve fixed your comment to make it a bit more readable. Please use the “blockquote” html tag to mark what you quote or if you don’t know how, mark the quote in some way.
The ACP has no blame for what has snowballed out of control (PS: What?! I don’t see anything snowballing…). Once again, we are not an organization but rather a loosely tied group of individuals. The ACP has as much blame as has the, say, “It’s all about the lyrics” groups that some people you are arguing with belong to.
Honestly, about that other group, I still don’t care. I wouldn’t comment there even if it was open since I have no time to waste for people who are not willing to listen. The only reason I commented there was because of the ridiculous statement that we are “attacking groups” or something. The only reason I responded to you is because you replied to my post and since I can’t be bollocksed to join again just to reply, I responded here.
If they want to cencor their group, then fine. Whatever. I’m not going to be upset about it.
That’s quite a jump to what we are doing. First of all, If I was a Nazi and I honestly believed that bullshit then I would probably be flashing a swastika anyway, I wouldn’t wait for him to dissagree with me. This is what some of us are doing currently, just showing our belief in our signatures.
If you want to do the same, and write “Fuck atheism” or whatnot, be my guest. I won’t mind nor would I ask you to take it down because I’m offended (I’m not). However my initial reaction to you would be different had you not have it, only because your childish attack on it would speak a lot about your mentality. OTOH, most ACP’ers don’t say anything like that on their signatures, but rather stuff like “Embrace Enlightenment” with a link to the ACP. The difference is obvious.
As for respecting my beliefs…well, you shouldn’t. Beliefs are not sacred. I would like you to challenge my beliefs if you thought they are wrong but if you don’t want to, fine. I will not however respect your beliefs for they deserve no respect. The same way that someone who believes in Nazism does not deserve me to respect Nazism.
I put confontational things in my sig exactly because I want people to get incences and respond. Perhaps they might open their mind a little bit because of that.
I will leave the other parts to be responded to by the respective authors
March 10th, 2008 at 3:27 am - Edit
Holy EUREKA I hit paydirt. The crazy thing about it is I wasnt even looking for him anymore and I just happened to stumble across his bull when I went to comment on a old thread. Ok Anath and Db0 you wanted proof here it is
http://www.last.fm/group/Christian+Hard+Rock+and+Metal/forum/24997/_/183377/3#f5945988
If you’ll notice the thread is dedicated to posts on naming christian bands when all of a sudden BANG there he is having a temper tantrum. This got some of my brain cells working and I was able to find the original thread I first encountered this induvidual.
http://www.last.fm/group/Christian/forum/111/_/317061/1
Its also here I openly challenged and as you can see we actually got into some debate. You will also see that when I did challenge him he actually started talking like someone who had a brain. I see hes been banned from LastFm. NICE the system does work on LastFM good to see \m/ Anyways thats what Im talking about its users like that who have caused friction between our two proverbial camps. You will also see by the dates of the posts that I did not just happen to pull this out of my cap or fabricate it. Now I DONT blame others on here for the actions of this induvidual but you do have to admit the said induvidual does nothing but cause problems and cause a downward spiral leading to misconceptions and distrust.
I will respond further to you db0 once ISos and Anath have had a chance to submit their rebuttal. So as to keep this thread orderly please refrain from posting further until said other parties have had a chance to say their peace. Thanks in advance. Oh and sorry about the sloppy post I’ll be sure to use the quote HTML feature from here on in.
Bless \m/
March 10th, 2008 at 9:09 am - Edit
Porkchop, this kind of thing happens with Antichristians, Atheists or Christians. Trolls come in all forms. Usually they are taken care of by the admins (As is the case here)
This does not say anything about be, Isos, Anath or any other ACP’er who can actually discuss. The same way that me giving you an example of similar behaviour would not say anything about you.
Yes, people like that cause nothing but problems (this is why they are called Trolls) but the only reason to get generate misconceptions is if you tend to generalize.
March 12th, 2008 at 3:14 am - Edit
Hey there my Athiest friends,
Take a minute to peruse
http://www.jfcshow.com
and you’ll see why Bono is saying “Forget Africa, donate your money to JFC”
and why Christians are saying “You evil, sadistic bastards, you can’t make
fun of our lord in such a blatant and highly realistic fashion!”
Cheers
March 17th, 2008 at 4:02 pm - Edit
Okay, finally getting around to responding, sorry it took so long. Frankly when this all started there were a couple other things that threw me off. Because you had accused me of being a troll or a Nazi. Neither of those names really apply to me, no matter if I even agree with some of the Nazi ideaology, but on a political basis I don’t think their system really works very well. I’ve read “Mein Kampf” (just finished it today actually) and Hitler had some reasonably good ideas and he knew how to strategize. However, he was quite foolish when it came to things like education because his whole perspective was to keep the people ignorant because, frankly, most people didn’t need it. Was he wrong? Technically no, but I would much prefer that knowledge be free access for everyone. Doesn’t change the fact he was right that most people don’t need it an won’t use it. Secondly the troll factor made no sense because I don’t post on forums that often. From my point of view it had seemed you had resulted in ignorant name calling. This seemed foolish to me, so I saw no point in taking many of your posts seriously.
I think I understand a bit of the Nazi comment now based on what you wrote above about censorship. My comments don’t come from a desire to censor Christianity. I personally feel that would be a losing battle and I think if I was ever in power and outlawed Christianity it would only result in them gaining more adherents to their cause. Thus the only true way to eradicate a religion would be to kill all the followers and burn all the texts and never allow the teachings to be taught. This way that within one generation of humanity Christianity would be forgotten and no longer exist. Do I think this would be good for the world? Pretty much, but I also realize that it is literally impossible to accomplish this amazing feat. Just as it is impossible to eradicate Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, or Judaism at this point! I guess, in retrospect, my beliefs should Terrify you to a degree. If you were scared by Varg’s feeble beliefs at any rate.
I confess that my ideaology is very extreme, but I am also quite a realist when it comes to looking at this. So, I have adjusted tactics when it comes to dealing with Christianity. I don’t care if you follow Jesus, I care if you KNOW about it. Do you read the Bible? Do you know the historical inconsistencies? Are you okay with the data that doesn’t correlate? If the answer is yes, then go for it, be Christian. But as long as people know the Bible isn’t 100% fact and stop trying to change things like Science, I’m okay with Christianity. My problem with Christians arises when they don’t even know what they read! I simply abhore ignorance, and frankly most Christians I speak with are the greatest culprits of this! I have never come across a religious group so set on telling me the “truth” yet have them know far less than me about it! This is why I reacted to you the way I did, when you started calling me a Nazi and a Troll, two terms that logically didn’t apply to me, I proclaimed you as just another ignorant Christian spouting his ideaology to the masses without even a half-wit about his own religion. Frankly, I have a hard time dealing with such and I figure it’s a waste of my time to go into any lengthy debate with such people, so I decide to mess with them and tear their statements apart, generally out of boredom. Now that we seem to be on the same page slightly, you don’t seem to be one of those people, but my first impression was that you came off this way. Such as I came off as a fascist to you. To which, my political leanings to not sway.
March 17th, 2008 at 4:22 pm - Edit
Care to elaborate?
how so? You’ve already performed an evil greater than anything else that has happened before or might have happened without you causing it. How is this good for the world?
March 17th, 2008 at 4:56 pm - Edit
Db0, maybe you're interraction with the greater population of the world is different from mine, so correct me if I am wrong. But from my experience with others, I don't see or interract with very many people who really go out of their way to learn information on a very high level, such as high grade mathematics or complex physics, hell even details on the evolutionary process. The majority of the population that I see are basically spoon fed general information and have no real practical use for these particular things. The cashier at the convenient store doesn't really need to know how Einstein's theory of relativity works in relation to the physics of light around a Black Hole. It's not necessary for their existence or their job. It's a luxury item. That's what I'm saying, the grandiose knowledge we all have access to isn't always necessary for our day to day existence. Don't get me wrong, I really think having the knowledge is a great thing. I'm for the advancement of the human race because I think we can build on what we have SO much more. I want us to be at the level where knowing how to do calculus is a needed thing for our day to day work, for example. But you have to admit that we have a lot more cashiers in the world today than astro-physicists plotting possible settlement points on Mars. Not to bring cashiers down if you are one, this could easily apply to Bank Tellers or any other profession in the service industry, even mine, in the financial service industry. I just want to see the human race elevated as a whole.
This brings me to the next question you brought up. The concept of evil and good is all relative, so it may be an evil act to you, but not to me. The religions of the world, from my interraction and observances (and others I speak with as well, so I know it's repeatable and I'm not alone) see it as a hindrance. If we ever want the human race to be elevated as a whole we will eventually need to stop reading books like the Bible as absolute fact. There are WAY too many people that do this. Believe me, I live in America, right now the fact that things evolve is in jeopardy of becoming untrue because Christians don't think it meshes with their time-table of 6,000 years for world existence. This isn't going to help anyone, and I don't think the destruction the Catholic Church has wrought on the European world can ever truly be undone or taken back. Especially not with this new Pope who proclaims that the Big Bang Model is NOT in line with Christianity and nor is Evolution. They hinder the progress of human knowledge. My point was that the quickest way to get to the advancement process would be to rid the world of religion and it's adherents. Then, if the species can get over itself enough to stop needing God's permission to do research, we can maybe make our world truly wonderful. God gave us the ability to understand, think for ourselves AND to create, just as the deity once did. Most people are afraid to use this ability. I say, stop being afraid, grow up and use it! My illustration was from a Mills point of view of utilitarianism about serving the greater good. I can't deny that it wouldn't help humanity to rid the world of religions and it's adherents. Can you think of way it would hinder our advancement?
March 17th, 2008 at 5:57 pm - Edit
What does ones current employment have to do with anything?
True, most people don’t care about knowledge but it is not true that they would not benefit from it. As a first point, by becoming more knowledgeable it would mean that their skepticism and critical thinking would increase which in turn would lead them to challenge their more deep seated beliefs like theism and woo-woo.
You seem to have abandoned hope in humanity and taken on a form of nihilism (which is unfortunate imho) that leads you to discard the baby with the bathwater.
“Grandiose” knowledge might not seem important until you actually have use for it. People 300 years ago, did not see the reason to learn mathematics or reading/writing. 150 years ago, most did not know physics, etc. However you can plainly see how these “unimportant” things are useful in our day to day life. You never know what might become important tomorrow. Also, with a potential open culture, more knowledge would mean a better human race. Just by looking at community projects like Wikipedia should give an idea of what I mean.
I am further puzzled by your wish to “see the human race elevated as a whole”. Elevated to what?
True, I would love to see humanity embrace a culture that promotes fairness and good life for everyone as a means to make everyone’s life better. However I do not understand your concept of “elevation”.
True, there is no good or evil other than what we rate each other. In that sense, your act of genocide would be evil in the eyes of almost everyone on earth and also would bring you to the same, if not lower level than the monsters of history like Hitler, who had similar aspirations to yours. Hitler too wanted the “elevation of the human race”, but to him that mean that Only Aryans should rule (or live). In your mind, it’s only the nonreligious.
I too would like Religion and silly beliefs (or woo-woos as me and others call them) would dissapear but that would not mean that what was left was going to be automatically better. It it not religion that makes people act wrong. It’s false beliefs and desires. Take away religion and leave those beliefs and desires intact and the people would do the same things but in the name of some other cause. Nationalism and Communism come easily to mind. Especially if in the process you’ve become worse than them.
In the end, I disagree. Our cause should not be to exterminate Religion forcefully because it’s unrealistic. If we just promote critical thinking and lust for knowledge otoh, this is something that will arrive by itself.
March 17th, 2008 at 6:09 pm - Edit
The funny part here is we are arguing the same general point, just from different directions. My analogy of someone’s career was to point out that technically they don’t require advanced knowledge in their day to day life. I chose a simple working job, such as Cashier. Pointing out that the the knowledge of deriving logarithms and their inner workings are simply a luxury for their day to day lives. They don’t apply it as they swipe Oreo’s through the scanner. I’m taking a very technical approach.
By “elevation” I mean heightened knowledge. Which would in turn do away with petty squabbling between countries, races, religions etc. I am talking about increasing the general knowledge of the world’s populations and having more knowledge means people can approach each other on drastically different levels of communication. INTELLIGENT communication being one of them.
Oh, I do actually agree that our cause shouldn’t be to forcefully eradicate religion. As I said, it IS unrealistic. It’s also a stupid goal to have. I was merely providing a philosophical point of view that if you actually wanted a quick fix. I see your point though that people today will cling to other faith based concepts, like Nationalism or Communis, for example. However, my argument hinges on increasing global knowledge during that absolute annihilation. I was merely stating a quick fix procedure. It wouldn’t work. It’s impossible to do actually, which is why we MUST promote critical thinking and lust for knowledge as you point out. It’s the only realistic way to get people to elevate their minds out of faith based concepts that have no real bearing for our species.
Frankly if they need it to get through the day to day grind, then go ahead. I’m saying it shouldn’t have an adverse affect on human advancement or their knowledge intake! You don’t NEED to reconicle the Bible with science, the Bible points out that all you have to have is faith. Go for it, have it. I would just like these people to stop letting the Bible hold them back when something doesn’t really correlate. Or if they want to read about some particularly “bad” part of history, like the Inquisition or the Holocaust. Everyone should know about these things so they are NOT repeated!
March 27th, 2008 at 4:51 am - Edit
Alright, finally I am responding. I apologize for the extreme delay but to put it plainly, art school is pretty much kicking my ass. I’ve been swamped with projects, essays, homework, paid work, and so on. Still swamped, but a tad less so this week, so here we go.
Porkchop.
I don’t even know that guy “godisalie”, and I see no tangible connection between him and the ACP. To use him as evidence against us makes no sense. Not every AntiChristian on last.fm affiliates themselves with us, just as not every Christian on last.mf affiliates themselves with the group “Christians @ last.fm”. I regret that this person bothered you, but they are an individual with the ability to do whatever they please. Their actions should have no reflection on anyone here as we are all individuals with the ability to act in the manner we choose, which may or may not be similar to “godisalie”‘s manner of debate. Each individual should be judged based on the individual’s actions and words alone, not lumped into generalizations, stereotypes, etc, unless they lend themselves to being placed there.
As far as your beef with signatures, trying to restrain what is written in a signature is no different than the censorship you are trying to quench in the Jesus Rocks group. While it is bad taste to make a moronic, ignorant signature, its not really your problem, but the person who put it up. As I mentioned in the paragraph above, that individual should be scrutinized for what he or she writes in the signature, as it is a few sentence or image presentation of oneself. If they want to present themselves as a moron, then they should be treated as one. If they want to wave White Power banners at a meeting of the NAACP, Swastikas in Jerusalem, inverted crosses at the steps of the Vatican, have a barbecue at a PETA rally, or moon the President during the State of the Union, they had better be ready for the consequences. But who says they can’t? Let them fall on their face and get the shit kicked out of them, or whatever happens. They did this, now they will be judged. Its harsh, but it is the Way of Humans to generally be harsh of judgment and rash in action. You judged them initially based on those few lines. You judged us and the ACP initially the sheer fact that we are AntiChristian and strongly disagreed with you, as well as your negative experience in the past. You judged and acted against me based who my Twin was and that he offended you (I do accept your apology
). Time can and has changed these judgments, through discussion and open minds on both sides.
Following this, it is nice that you clarified above that you were not “blaming the ACP in general”, but recall in the original post, where you stated “your forum shares part of the blame”, then addressed us as a group, advising that we should “kick out the trolls”, “control our membership”, and “take responsibility for them”.
As for the shoutbox issue you had… I think we can look over it as your new-ness to last.fm and lack of familiarity with the tone of shoutboxes. Anything in them written in all caps, with smileys, with LOL’s, and extremely absurd statements are not to be taken seriously. Serious discussion generally happens in the forums, shoutboxes are beyond casual. While I understand your concern about church burnings, consider the context. There’s a big difference between contexts even with the same text. Or, think of it this way; if they were serious, wouldn’t they do something (relatively) serious about it? Shoutbox posts are noncommittal and causal. Starting a thread with a serious tone is not. If this person really wanted to “burn some churches”, they would have started a thread and began a serious discussion about amounts of gasoline, “matches, lighter, or flamethrower”, the right kind of wood/kindling to put here and there, best time of day to avoid detection, etc. Or they would have just come out and DONE it rather than done something risky like talk about it in open and declare intent on the internet. You may have been “on Earth” longer than me this trip, but I can tell that I’ve been a serious forum denizen longer than you. Much of what is written in much discussion forums is nothing but hot air, and after time and with exposure to the correct forums and members, it becomes incredibly easy to tell who is serious and who is not. Interacting in a world almost purely of text is vastly different than interacting in a world of flesh and blood, and takes some getting used to.
Now to address my comment that our point of view should be offensive to you.
You did not understand what I meant, and justifiably so. I was vague. Of course there are people out there who do not believe in Christianity, or God, or believe different forms of some religion. This makes sense, and should be no cause for concern. What I meant when I simply stated “we do not believe what you do and that your beliefs were false” was much more extreme than that. The degree to which we reject your belief system should be cause for concern for someone strong in the faith, as you seem to be. When I discuss this topic I tend to smooth the edges and downplay my stance to get my point across without causing mind-closing offense. The fact is, I view Christianity as a hideous aberration which strangles humanity and rapes its ability to reason and think. It is a system of mind-control and propagation of lies. It distorts truth and cripples society. It festers in ignorance and demonizes what is true. It misinterprets its own “holy” texts for power, control, and to promote its own ends. It shackles the free and keeps them watching shadows reflected on cave walls. It promotes a system of false dualities and damns anything that disagrees with their interperetation of morality. It is a virus, a plague, a parasite, which should ultimately be phased out and exterminated. You will most likely never hear me state these things in such a manner again. I avoid this use of blunt language because it closes doors and stunts a potentially meaningful debate. Hopefully you can see why you “should” be offended by our point of view. If something in that did not offend even the slightest bit, then you should question your faith.
~That’s all I have time for now, I intended to get to bed early today and now look! Anyway, I look forward to a response and apologize again for the delay.~
April 4th, 2008 at 8:42 pm - Edit
Hello again everyone sorry for being away for so long, anycase I’m finally back so lets get down to my post starting with you Db0
QUOTE: Honestly, about that other group, I still don’t care.
My friend you have done something that I never thought would be possible, with four small words you completely blew my mind. I STILL DON’T CARE. Db0 you and your camp pride yourselves on being enlightened wheres the enlightenment in the words I still don’t care? Db0 the ban in the christian rooms effects YOU AND YOUR CAMP not me. Why am I putting my neck on the proverbial chopping block trying to put out a proverbial fire when your just going to hand the people who put the ban on free discusssion the keys to the firetruck so they can drive it away before I hook up the firehose??!! Don’t you understand you have been CENSORED. In your above past posts you have said you will attack my religeous point of view non stop but now you won’t fight for your own right for free speech. Does that make any sense? You really want to know why Im doing all this? The following quote is why.
JOHN 18:33-38
33Pilate then went back inside the palace, summoned Jesus and asked him, “Are you the king of the Jews?”
34″Is that your own idea,” Jesus asked, “or did others talk to you about me?”
35″Am I a Jew?” Pilate replied. “It was your people and your chief priests who handed you over to me. What is it you have done?”
36Jesus said, “My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants, would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jews. But now my kingdom is from another place.”
37″You are a king, then!” said Pilate. Jesus answered, “You are right in saying I am a king. In fact, for this reason I was born, and for this I came into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone on the side of truth listens to me.”
38″What is truth?” Pilate asked.
WHAT IS TRUTH…..do you realize how morally bankrupt and empty Pilate had to be for him to even doubt the concept on what is truth? Pilate had absolutely no CLUE what it meant to really live. He was morally bankrupt and cared for noone or anything. He has my pity. Db0 please I know we’re on opposite sides of how we see the world but thats no reason to harden your heart and become another Pilate. You have been censored FIGHT for your God given right. It is your right that has been taken away. (shakes head) I stand down. I will not continue to challenge the owner about the ban on ACP members. I cannot do anything if you CHOOSE to do nothing for yourselves. I just hope someday if the day comes you don’t take the same stance on other more important matters. There is no longer any more reason for use to discuss this subject since it is a dead subject. I do thank you for enviting me here though it was a bold gesture and a very open minded gesture. For that you have my respect. Now to you ISos.
QUOTE: Thus the only true way to eradicate a religion would be to kill all the followers and burn all the texts and never allow the teachings to be taught. This way that within one generation of humanity Christianity would be forgotten and no longer exist. Do I think this would be good for the world? Pretty much, but I also realize that it is literally impossible to accomplish this amazing feat. Just as it is impossible to eradicate Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, or Judaism at this point! I guess, in retrospect, my beliefs should Terrify you to a degree.
More enlightenment I see. Where is this hate and rage coming from???? Well you are right in that if you tried to wipe us out you would only fail miserably and earn yourself a spot in history alongside other despots like Hitler and Stalin. The Romans tried to do just the same thing and in the end look what happened to them. Fact of the matter is the second you started the killing someone somewhere would grab as many holy texts as they could find and hide them away from your hands. Fact is you could never get all of us because some would escape and go underground. You could crush all our bones in the end you would only have our pure unbowed DEFIANCE, and yes ISos you do scare me. Its people like you who if they ever came into power could cause a holacaust and push this world to the brink of utter destruction. ISos I dont know you, your a stranger behind alot of text. The only thing I can say to you is be at peace brother. Let the hate wherever it comes from go. Its just going to eat you away inside. I must also point out that if you hold to these ideologies you lean towards facism. If you really want to be enlightened then learn to be accepting of others view no matter what they are. Im not saying let someone force you to believe what you dont want to believe I’m saying don’t become the kind of person YOU HATE so much.
QUOTE: Db0, maybe you’re interraction with the greater population of the world is different from mine, so correct me if I am wrong. But from my experience with others, I don’t see or interract with very many people who really go out of their way to learn information on a very high level, such as high grade mathematics or complex physics, hell even details on the evolutionary process. The majority of the population that I see are basically spoon fed general information
Errrr…..ummmm how can I say this? First of all Im not slamming the USA. I like the USA. ISos your argueing about education to Db0 whose european (Germany if I remember right). ISos Im originally european and I have interacted with both europeans and americans. Fact is europeans are by far better educated then americans. The american education system is terrible compared to the european system. You come from a country of over 250 million which doesnt even have a basic healthcare sysytem for its own citizenry never mind a good education system. Canada lags behind the european education sytem but we are still better educated compared to americans. ISos if you want fewer cashiers in the USA get a govt THAT EDUCATES ITS PEOPLE.
Another thing I would like to ask you Isos is what does someones employment have to do with someones intelligence. How do you know that cashier while shes performing her work isnt thinking about the deeper meaning of a sonnet? How do you know he/ she isnt thinking about some math problem? How do you know he / she isnt maybe a unknown writer whose quietly writing a book at home about whatever subject. There are alot of people out there who are smart but are unlucky in that they couldnt afford a better education to get a better job or had to take a lower job because they have family to watch over. Because you have a better job then such and such a person doesnt mean your smarter ISos it measn your lucky. I know this is just an example your giving but your example came off as arrogant. Your better then that ISos even I have to admit that. Im surprised you would post such a thing.
QUOTE: This brings me to the next question you brought up. The concept of evil and good is all relative, so it may be an evil act to you, but not to me.
WOW. That quote reminds me of a documentary I saw roughly a year ago about the death camps of WWII. In the documentary they interviewd a guy who was a clerk at one of the camps. His duty was to document the processing of prisoners and the items they took from the incoming prisoners (valuables). He recounted on camera one time while he was walking to find one of the officers he ran across a pile of freshly gased bodies that were being thrown into the back of a truck for incineration. He stopped and noted that there was a body of a little girl maybe 5 years old which was lying off to the side of the pile which was twitching and still foaming at the mouth as well as her eyes were still moving (she hadnt died from the gas). It was then tha one of the soldiers grabbed the little girls body by the heels and swung her viciously head first against the side of the truck 4 or 5 times to finish what the gas had failed to do. When the interviewer asked what his thought was at the time upon seeing this the man answered as follows. Well I was horrified. She was only a child after all. But the thing is back then we all thought it was a necessary evil. After all the jews were responsible for trying to take over Germany financially. Another thing was none of us really thought of them as really people. This is an example of what can happen when someone starts to think of the concept of good and evil as relative. There is good and there is evil in this world there is no relative involved in either. THERE IS GOOD AND THERE IS EVIL PERIOD. END OF DISCUSSION!!!!! Now last but not least to you Anath.
Im not going to bother quoting because the post is already huge so im just going to do a general response you your Anath i hope you dont mind. Firstly I already knew you hated the concept of christianity. My first tip was this
http://kizitokitty.deviantart.com/art/Christian-666-51632133
My next tip was found here on this very site in a post you made to someone about how you would never be christian again and how you didnt want them to pray for you. As I remember it and Im only going by memory one part of the post said the very thought made you feel disgusted and made you cringe or something to that general effect. Anycase Anath you really didnt have to clarify your stance above because I had already guessed. Also your ISos’s girlfriend and lets face it I stongly doubt ISos would hide his views from you so therefore you probably had similar views. Oh there is one part of your post I do have to quote though.
QUOTE: Hopefully you can see why you “should” be offended by our point of view. If something in that did not offend even the slightest bit, then you should question your faith
I have no reason to question my faith or feel offended by you. That doesnt make sense to you does it? Well let me explain. As a christian I CANNOT judge you. I can NEVER judge you. Only GOD can judge the heart of a person. All I can do is turn the other cheek and try to understand WHY. Why cant I judge? Well people heres another bible quote. ( I know you guys love getting these ^-^)
Matthew 7:1-5
1″Do not judge, or you too will be judged.
2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
3″Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?
4How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye?
5You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.
I am a sinner and as a sinner I can JUDGE NOONE. Of coarse you will probably grin and say Im not sinning because I dont believe in christianity haha. Everyone in this world is a sinner christian, muslim, jewish, atheist etc. It is also a sin for me to be holier then though. Arrogance is a fools trait. Humility is a path taken by the wise for everyone falls on their face eventually. Ok now to my very last point.
Anath let me put it this way. Take someone debating over zealously on the threads (who shall remain nameless) mix in godisalie, sprinkle bible fundamentalism, throw in shoutbox assaults, sprinkle insulting post signatures add close mindedness along with suspicion and you get a powder keg. What happens when you take a overflowing powder keg and add a match? BOOM!!! The end result is freedom of speech becomes a casualty. Please read my following words very carefully.
THERE IS EQUAL BLAME IN BOTH CAMPS. THIS HAS CAUSED CENSORSHIP WHICH STRANGLES THE CREATIVE SPIRIT AND OPEN DIALOGUE AND HONEST DISCUSSION. EVERYONE LOSES BECAUSE OF THIS
This is as clear as I can make it. If you still feel that there is no blame what so ever from any user on the ACP and that all members in here are like saints then I guess i must either be dumb as a doorpost or I have completely failed in my dialogues. I speak to you from the heart Anath. I dont want dialogue to be strangled. I dont hate any of you. I hate all forms of censorship. I dont like seeing people victimized. That is the only reason i have agreed to come here. Of coarse now it doesnt really matter after all Db0 probably STILL DOESNT CARE. Ive completely failed on both sides. Im sorry I wasnt stronger and wasnt able to move either side in their stances. I hope down the road some way some how this situation will change but seriously I now doubt it ever will. Other forums are doing the same thing and eventually I have no doubt that there will be a backlash by someone. The end result is a total failure in ever attaining mutual respect, and that makes me sad.
Thank you again Db0 for inviting me here, and thank you also to any other users on this site who bothered to read my posts. Hopefully someone here found them informative although unfortunately there was nothing resolved and the ban wasnt able to be lifted. Feel free to drop me a line on LastFm Im quite an amiable person who loves discussing music amongst other things. My page url is as follows http://www.last.fm/user/porkchop1234/
\m/Bless
April 5th, 2008 at 10:47 am - Edit
Okay……..
I'm not particularly interested in the lack of a dialogue with Christian groups as people who want to talk will talk, period. Of course most of the people doing the talking are so entrenched in their own viewpoints/beliefs/dogma, with each side expecting the other to cave, that even when there is conversation it never tends to go anywhere. But enough with the jaded, pessimistic bullshit, let's talk.
All right, well who's truth? That statement from Jesus was ambiguous as hell. "Everyone on the side of truth listens to me." So a Buddhist isn't on the "side of truth" then?
I'd say there are generally two kinds of 'truths' if you will; factual, verifiable information (radio frequencies, atomic masses, dates of events) and opinions, ideas (unverifiable/abstract concepts involving "best" or "ideal" or other preferences) people believe to be true. If Jesus was referring to factual information there, what would that be? Most adherents of any religion consider their beliefs to be "absolute" truth (whatever THAT means) and categorize it with the former. However, none of their positions are verifiable, and in fact are setup in such a way to preclude verification. It's he said vs she said, and whoever can convince the most people "wins". Seriously, that crap reeks of ambiguity.
As for Isos's comments… he's right. The fastest way to get rid of any ideology/idea/concept etc. would be to kill anyone who practices or believes in it, remove all material associated with or referencing said ideology, and prevent it from being introduced into the following generation. That would be the fastest way of eliminating any ideology. That's not to say similar thoughts/concepts couldn't be conceived in the future, but it would never be the same as it had been. Now to think of what would be required to accomplish that with almost any concept (Hinduism, Humanism, evolutionary theory) all but proves that it would be impossible to accomplish simply due to the sheer scale of it. Now with fields of study like evolutionary theory, since the evidence which supports it is an inherent trait within nature, a concept such as that would be the most likely to reoccur. And since there are specific, observable facts and limitations behind it, it would not at all be difficult for people to come to extremely similar if not identical conclusions regarding it in the future. If Christianity were wiped out, the world would need another "miracle" in order to start that up again, and considering there are currently 3 different general religious denominations (Islam, Judaism, Christianity) all based around the same supposed events, it's very unlikely that Christianity would ever be able to reform to what it had been, let alone be the only religion to form from said "miracle".
His other comment was correct as well. The majority of people today skim the surface of most topics without every truly delving into them, especially with the advent of the internet. In seconds people can pull someone else's opinion on any given subject from a simple Google search, memorize a few small pieces of information, and convince themselves that they're informed regarding said topic. But even that would involve really going out of their way for some people. Frankly most individuals just don't have time to really dig into any given subject matter. They're putting 2-3 kids through school, sitting on $15k in credit card debt, and working assloads of overtime in a near futile attempt to pay off their second mortgage by the time they retire (assuming they do). There is just too much to do to sit down and study quantum mechanics or contemplate the works of Epicurus. Ignoring all that, a lot of people simply aren't interested. It doesn't concern their day-to-day lives, and besides, football and soap operas are far more entertaining. Hate to generalize, but it's more often true than not.
As for moral relativity, it's really easy to pick the simple stuff – rape, genocide, war – but there are plenty of issues which are neither "good" nor "bad", yet which have people firmly positioned on one side or the other. Abortion, embryonic stem-cell research, gay rights… the list goes on. Classifying these is brutally subjective. But even genocide and war have their advocates who feel they are morally just for whatever reason. The point is that is their opinion. There is no such thing as moral objectivity, because what you object to won't necessarily be the same things that I object to. And just because what you believe is written in a book doesn't make it any more of a valid moral position than anyone else's.
Genocide, rape and war are generally deemed to be bad as no one would want to be on the receiving end of any of those, so why would they impose it on anyone else? With abortion, some people say it's the life of the fetus which is the most important, or what should be protected, while others feel that the mother's life is more important. But there are a lot of factors to consider – maybe the mother wouldn't be able to support a child, maybe she was raped and doesn't want a child, or is in an abusive relationship (perhaps with her father) and wouldn't want to subject a child to that. There are far more shades of grey present here than there are in your concentration camp example.
As for you judging people, I'm gonna call shenanigans on that one.
John 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.
That's King James. If you prefer the New International…
John 7:24 Stop judging by mere appearances, and make a right judgment.
Either way that's Jesus talking again. So in Matthew he says not to judge (frankly it seems more like he said that you aren't in a position to judge if you are no better off, ie. don't be a hypocritical douche, but whatever) and in John he says to judge "correctly". More of the wondrous consistency the bible is known for.
As far as placing blame goes, I don't think it matters. There are always assholes, whether they be theistic or a-theistic in nature, and thus there will always be those who are not interested in speaking with them. The assholes are usually the ones to hinder or kill a conversation, and it is those people that others tend to avoid. We snuff just as many (if not more) nazi-racist-bigot assholes on the ACP forum as other groups do.
I think the general idea behind what has been said regarding this is that we are not an instigator of hate. If our group served to propagate attacks on religious forums then I could understand pointing fingers. But if individual members take it upon themselves to converse with, harass or assault other users ANYWHERE on Last.fm, the ACP can't rightly be blamed for that. However, if you perceive a few philosophical differences expressed on Last.fm in infantile and dramatic ways as a "powder keg", then I'd hate to see how you'd classify a real issue.
April 6th, 2008 at 12:56 am - Edit
I thought my last post would be the end of this thread but now we have a new poster. Ok quick response to Minion4Hire. Ok first of all the comment about truth. Of coarse Christ is truth for me I am christian after all. I gave that biblical post as a means of showing WHY I was going out of my way over the censorship issue on forums. My aim was to point out that in NOT CARING a person becomes blinded by whats in front of his eyes. Of coarse this is what it means TO ME. If you reread my post I said as follows: You really want to know why Im doing all this? then I gave my biblical quote. as for Isos and your view of wiping out christianity well go ahead and try like I said before you can crush all our bones but you will never get us all. You are right though in that if someone would try to destroy the religeon it would change from what it is now. It would become STRONGER in the long run.
Now as for the comment of people only skimming information and not really educating themselves well to a certain extent you are rignt in that enough people are to busy to have time to look deeper into a cetain subject BUT what I was getting at is his example came off as arrogant. I was shocked he would have posted something like that for the simple fact he doesnt seem arrogant.
Now as for your comment of good and evil being relative I suggest you reread my post and see that I stated as follows: THERE IS GOOD AND THERE IS EVIL PERIOD. END OF DISCUSSION!!!!! There is no discussion to be had on this subject with me because Ive made my feelings quite clear therefore its a waste of time and webpage space to continue on. Im not being closed minded I stated my belief so please do respect it.
Now then the biblical comment of: Stop judging by mere appearances, and make a right judgment. Christ is basically saying dont judge on whats on the outside but whats on the inside or to put in modern day terms dont judge a book by its cover.
QUOTE: As far as placing blame goes, I don’t think it matters. There are always assholes, whether they be theistic or a-theistic in nature, and thus there will always be those who are not interested in speaking with them. The assholes are usually the ones to hinder or kill a conversation, and it is those people that others tend to avoid. We snuff just as many (if not more) nazi-racist-bigot assholes on the ACP forum as other groups do.
QUOTE: I think the general idea behind what has been said regarding this is that we are not an instigator of hate. If our group served to propagate attacks on religious forums then I could understand pointing fingers. But if individual members take it upon themselves to converse with, harass or assault other users ANYWHERE on Last.fm, the ACP can’t rightly be blamed for that. However, if you perceive a few philosophical differences expressed on Last.fm in infantile and dramatic ways as a “powder keg”, then I’d hate to see how you’d classify a real issue.
AGREED PARTIALLY. You have my respect if you didnt have it I wouldnt have bothered to post on here. I have never thought of the ACP or at least the members I have dealt with as hate mongerers. THIS I MAKE CLEAR RIGHT NOW. All I want to do is get rid of a silly rule THATS IT. All Im trying to say is if a little more respect from both sides could be shown then these problems would be minimal. Note I said BOTH SIDES. Im not here to point fingers solely at the ACP or try and convert the ACP. I leave the task of conversion to the holy spirit. As for philisophical diffrences my friend if I didnt want to hear philisophical diffrences would I have openly challenged the ban on no more discussion on threads with non believers? Does it make any sense? As for the assholes yeah there always will be assholes. To bad there isnt a better and quicker way of getting rid of them from the threads considering they cause so much trouble.
P.S.
Oh and by the way ISos Hitler was a terrible strategist. He would over rule his generals war plans which lead to enough complications on the war front and ultimately he cost his country the war when he decided to attack the USSR. Fighting on two fronts was an assinine move which cost him everything. Thank God for that.
April 6th, 2008 at 10:27 am - Edit
What is blowing your mind Porkchop? All I said was that I wouldn’t try to discuss in that forum even if it was open. Why? Simple prioritization. If I get into the mood to argue I might go there, or I might go to beliefnet or wherever. I’m certainly not going to waste time fighting cencorship in every random niche forum I find on a principle. I have better things to to. I support the reason why you want to change the minds of your fellow christians but please don’t act so “holier than thou” about it.
Furthemore, I am not a missionary. I am not here to convert as many people as possible to leave Christianity. I am part of the ACP just because I like to write my thoughts and have intelligent discussions with people who are into that sort of thing. I’m not about to waste my time trying to convince every two-bit hick to discover the secrets of conversation, thought and open-mindness. This is something that his parents should have done and they have obiously failed.
Please continue fighting if you wish. You may very well make him see the error of his ways and that might be a victory by itself. Just because the ACP’ers that were in that forum have left, does not mean you do not have a point.
As for the more important matters, well, that is the problem. This matter is pretty trivial and I have more important matters to attent to
Just because it’s your belief does not garner it respect. So no. Either your position can stand on it’s own merits or it deserves no respect. Currently, I will agree with Mirror that there is no good and evil. There are only shades of egoism.
If you insist by your statement that opinion should be respected then I might as well say “Well, respect my opinion not to respect your opinion”. It is inane…
Aaaactually, Christ says: Don’t judge. Period.
Which is, of course, absurd, as this is something we do all the time, even subconsciously.
I think we’ve shown you in this thread that we can be pretty respectful and polite if the other person deserves it. Asking us to manage it for every member that joins the ACP however is impossible. Which is what we’ve been trying to explain.
PS: I’m not a grammar nazi but you keep repeating this word. It’s not “of coarse”, it’s “of course”
April 7th, 2008 at 12:26 pm - Edit
Personally, I found it a poorly chosen quote. Pilate is petty and egotistical, but to relate that passage back to someone not caring doesn’t make a lot of sense. That bit is about Pilate judging Jesus. He asks him if he is king of the Jews, and then asks if Pilate himself is a Jew, as if to ask “do you reign over me as well?” simultaneously challenging and mocking his authority.
But I didn’t even focus on that. I focused on what you emphasized; what is truth? Because I think it’s a fair question. You respond with Christ, but to me it’s a nonsensical, ambiguous answer. I’ve found that a lot of religious people seem to value, nay, exude ambiguity as it results in less they need to explain, and less they need to analyze. If Christ is truth, then what is truth? Answering ‘Christ’ is mindlessly cyclical.
Umm…. no? I read your post fine the first time. My problem is that you’re wrong. Separating people and actions into over simplistic chunks might help you sleep at night, but it has nothing to do with reality. And beyond just partially good or partially bad things, there are plenty of issues which are entirely circumstantial without any kind of objective, absolutist, moral law. I highlighted some, but if you think ignoring them allows you to throw down broad, flawed statements then you’re all sorts of delusional. The black and white picture you paint does not stand to scrutiny, and as Db0 stated…
QFT.
There’s the rub though. In porkchop’s quote, Matthew 7:1, Jesus is saying not to judge. In the quote I referenced, John 7:24, Jesus is giving guidelines for judging. This contradiction seemed to go right over porkchop’s head, however he did illustrate in his response that he understands John 7:24. So why would Jesus say to not judge a book by its cover if he doesn’t want people judging at all? Seems a tad odd, no? There’s no need for John’s reference if Matthew’s is what Jesus wants from his flock. So is Matthew the idealist and John the realist? Or maybe Jesus can’t make up his mind. Or perhaps the Bible isn’t divinely inspired, and is instead a culmination of ideas from various different people spanning centuries of time and shouldn’t be taken as literally as it is. Not to beat around the bush or anything…
However, I do agree with you Db0; not judging is an absurd concept. Making split second judgments, identifying predators, developing stereotypes; these are all defensive and survival mechanisms. If we weren’t able to identify likely threats, we wouldn’t have survived as a species, and it’s because our ancestors possessed these skills that they were able to survive and the reason why we have those very skills today. Frankly, even though they often serve as a barrier those impulses are still quite useful in modern social interactions, although I won’t get into that here.
I’d like to go back to something porkchop said at the beginning of his last post.
You’re fixated on the wrong part of the conversation, and getting a little self-righteous with it (although I suppose for a Chrisitian that’s a good thing). Isos’s assessment was correct as to the fastest way to snuff an ideology. I think everyone gets the idea that it’s not something that could be implemented. The scale is retarded. For one you would need to read people’s thoughts to prevent them from saying one thing and thinking another. But my point after that was that if an ideology like yours WAS eliminated, it could never recover because it’s not based in reality. It’s based on letters and fables from Paul two millennia ago. Get rid of that and the religion has nothing. The theory of evolution could make a fairly easy comeback given the evidence which surrounds and embodies us. Belief systems like humanism could reform similarly to how we know it given its broad scope. Christianity could NEVER reform from nothing. If it was eradicated, that would be the end of it. It survives only due to fable and lore. And a faked miracle from the Vatican every now and then, but hey, who can blame them?
The only way you could claim Christianity could be reformed independently would be if a ‘miracle’ could occur (but even then that’s only based on how people are to interpret that ‘miracle’) or due to the fact that Christianity is basically a meta-religion. None of the content in the bible is unique. It had all been done before. What was smart was bundling it all together and repackaging it. Good merchandising is good merchandising, hard to argue that. You can keep on with the melodramatic bone crushing and everything, but followers having resolve doesn’t mean that the religion has substance. The Branch Davidians exemplify this quite well.
April 7th, 2008 at 3:45 pm - Edit
Hmm… Interesting responses so far. Minion4Hire, I must thank you for representing my philosophical examples so eloquently. Frankly, I wasn’t expecting this from you considering our discussion on Racism… which I realize, I haven’t fully replied to yet. Like Db0… prioritization problems arose.
Anyway, I feel I should comment/explain my position and examples. Frankly Porkchop, it feels like you missed some of my points. For whatever reason, I think you’re too bound up in your fear/prejudice against Nazism. I’m not a pro-Nazi. Not in anyway, Hitler’s political reform was horrible. But it can be tiresome because you jump to this conclusion constantly. I’m trying to say, in as relatively a nice way as I can, that you’re turning into a broken record returning to this ideaology. Nazism wasn’t the first thing that came along to silence a population. Christianity was doing it long before Hitler came up with it, in fact, if you read Mein Kampf he modeled a lot of his ideas off of what Christainity had done in the past because he thought it was brilliant. Why am I explaining all this? Because you’re jumping to conclusions that are incorrect. You are even responding to Minion4Hire’s commentary in the same fashion as if he supports it.
My analogy of genocide and the absolute whiping out of Christian faith is a philosophical statement. You can tell me that “you’ll keep the faith” essentially all you want, but that doesn’t invalidate my comment. I never said I was going to do it, nor did I say someone absolutely SHOULD do it. All I said, was that I didn’t feel it would hurt the world anymore than anything else already has. But that is not the purpose of my statement. It was to get you to think about the concept behind our motives, meaning, there’s no point in us trying to combat ideas on a physical level. It’s been attempted. Christianity did it during the Inquisition, we still have practicing witches today. No one can silence an idea, all they can do is create martyr’s. This could’ve happened if they killed L. Ron Hubbard in response to Scientology. All I’m saying is that Christianity isn’t really all that special. This concept has been tried many times, I’m saying we should look at the past and not repeat it because it is a futile endeavor.
And I feel I must reiterate the point that the concept of good and evil is purely sociological. Frankly, you’re entirely wrong about having that divide. I DO understand you’re point of view on the subject. I know it quite well, yet despite your faith on that topic, you can still be wrong. At first I thought you were willing to engage in philosophical debate on the topic of Good & Evil, but now I realize it is a moot point because you refuse to entertain the idea that it can be philosophically classified. Minion4Hire already presented excellent points to counter that, yet you didn’t entertain to try to understand his point of view. This is unfortunate because it felt like you wanted to engage us in conversation on such topics. I wanted to discuss things more, I enjoy these conversations. I don’t know what to say on this topic, other than provide other examples, even ones you provided as being horrid, like if the entire world grew up in a population that allowed rape, we would think it is evil? I have to admit, from a philosophical perspective that if our culture developed in that path, then maybe we wouldn’t think it was evil, and maybe it wouldn’t be considered rape, rather just “sex”? I have to admit, it’s possible. However, I think our general genetic programming for (the general population at least) to seek monagamous relationships works against this, but what if we weren’t instilled with this general program? It really makes you think what could have been.
As for the education. I didn’t think I was being arrogant, I was merely attempting to provide an example that kind of fit that criteria. Actually, maybe it does sound arrogant, but it’s true. It’s hard to deny the facts of a situation. Granted schools in Europe are better, but I don’t think there are too many cashiers or janitors that I could discuss the finer points of Plato with. I know this sounds arrogant, but I do think it’s a true statement. Are there people that fit your example? Of course there are. There is going to be the random Janitor that can do multi-dimensional mathematics. The movie “Good Will Hunting” is about such a scenario! I’m not denying this, I’m just pointing out that the general population, in America and abroad, will generally fit my comment. I have to speak in generalities on such a scale because there are 6 billion people on the planet. It’s like me saying that the lower class of people in Africa won’t understand books by Michio Kaku. While this might generally be true, I’m sure there is at LEAST one! Maybe even 25 or more. But that doesn’t mean the general population is out reading books by Michio Kaku on Quantum Mechanics. I doubt that’s true of ANY country’s lower class.
I do kind of hope that clarify’s my points a little. It feels like you took the philosophy a little too literally.
As for the censorship, I do agree with you, but I don’t feel too put out by having my ideas censored by Christians. I do enjoy those who are up for a good discussion, but they have the right not to listen to me or read my words. The only time I have a problem with it is when they take it to the next step and apply regulations to me that aren’t necessarily true. Such as Christianity getting into the argument on Evolution with Creationism and saying the world is 6,000 years old. This just isn’t true. That’s when I begin to have a problem with it. The other part is when Christians apply their general rule of thumb statement that I am a sinner. They don’t know that. Just because some book written thousands of years ago implies that the general population is a sinner, that doesn’t mean I have to be. For all you know I could be the chosen of God to reveal his/she/it’s true message to the world. Frankly, you don’t know. I might be without sin, you really don’t know. There’s no empirical evidence that you can bring to the table that proves otherwise. These are really the areas that I generally have a problem with. And I’m sorry to say that you brought up the sinner one. That’s your belief, you can believe it all you want, but I have to point out that it doesn’t make it true.
April 7th, 2008 at 6:32 pm - Edit
OK Porkchop… um…
First I’m not entirely sure how you thought your post would “finish” the debate? This is a purely rhetorical musing though.
Alright, to respond to points. I know this wasn’t addressed to me but HOW can you say this: “WHAT IS TRUTHc..do you realize how morally bankrupt and empty Pilate had to be for him to even doubt the concept on what is truth?”
ARE YOU SERIOUS??? You mean to imply that Plato, Socrates, Aristotle, Descartes, Nietzsche, Kant, etc etc etc were all morally bankrupt and empty because they doubted the concept of “what is truth”? Does this also apply to myself and the others in this thread and elsewhere during this age who still question the very existence and nature of “truth”? Even with every holy text in the world in front of me I doubt Truth. I would still doubt truth if Jesus or God or Odin or Enki or Krishna or Satan or Cthulu or *insert religious figure here* were to become manifest in front of me right now and tell me face-to-face. Based on the semantics of your sentence, I am morally bankrupt and empty. But I am not.
As far as using my screen shot as evidence that you could “tell I don’t like Christianity”… I agree that was a somewhat valid conclusion but it further supports my position that you are not very experienced on the internets and what does and does not constitute a tone of seriousness versus tongue-in-cheek. Here’s another way to tell: images drawn on absurdly in MS Paint; not serious.
I don’t need to bring up the “do not judge”/”here’s how to judge” contradiction as minion4hire has already done this effectively. I support his conclusions.
Further, this: “If you still feel that there is no blame what so ever from any user on the ACP and that all members in here are like saints then I guess i must either be dumb as a doorpost or I have completely failed in my dialogues.”
I (we) never said that ACP members were “like saints” in this, only that as a group the ACP is not the place to place “blame” but rather on the members that say what they do. No one, not even saints, are “saintlike”. And as said above, if you believe the hodgepodge of opinions and ideas that compose last.fm and the internet at large is a “powder keg”, I’d encourage you to look outside the internet to the “real world’ and tell me how that place is any different. The “internet situation” directly reflects “reality situation”.
Finally to throw a few points into this whole ordeal: “THERE IS GOOD AND THERE IS EVIL PERIOD. END OF DISCUSSION!!!!!”
There is most definitely not. Dualities are not real, but creations of a belief system. The only reason “good” and “evil” exist is because you (and others) believe in it. Is it “evil” for a tiger to kill a deer for food? Of course not. Is it “evil” for a tiger to kill a human for food? Of course not. Is it “evil” for a tiger to kill another tiger? Of course not. The tiger, as well as the rest of the natural world, does not follow the imaginary human-forged boundaries of “good” and “evil”. Hurricane Katrina may have been devastating to humans but it was no more evil than a light spring shower. Outside of human perception, evil does not exist. Inside human perceptions, it continues to be… merely perception. “Good’ and “evil” are means of control and demonization, to work in favor of the victor. Were the Inquisitors “good” or “evil”? Was Mohammed “good” or “evil”? Was the Council of Nicea “good” or “evil”? Was Hitler “good” or “evil”? Napoleon? Darwin? Einstein? The physicists who constructed the first atomic bomb? Was industrialization of the western world “good” or “evil” and was the formation of a large scale global economy “good” or “evil”? How about Communism? Fascism? Capitalism? Monarchy? The stock market? Christianity? Islam? Atheism? Luciferianism? Satanism? Paganism? Murder? Mercy-killing? Prayer? Obsession? Asceticism? Homosexuality/homosexuals? S+M? Free Speech?
People try to slap black and white labels on all those things and it just isn’t possible. In the beginning even I believed in the duality of “good” and “evil”, until I started considering the actual problem at hand. The discussion does not end with “there IS good and evil”. The discussion begins there.
Further on this topic, I wrote an essay about this last semester if you would like to read; http://www.antichristian-phenomenon.com/anath/debunking-christianity-25-the-ignorance-of-evil/
Anyway I’m off to get some work done.
May 31st, 2008 at 8:06 pm - Edit
Everyone please accept my apologies for taking forever to come back to this thread. Unfortunately I’ve been super busy and have only had time to type up a partial response to this thread. Anath I will answer your last post on a later date. Please don’t think I’m putting your questions on the back burner because I’m not. Its just right now I’m incredibly busy with life. I have also started dusting off some of my old books because you have all worried me with statements of good vs evil right vs wrong being relative. This is a very dangerous stance to take therefore I will be addressing this in a full complete post at a later date. I have slowly began to work on this future post and for now only ask your patience until its finally ready.
Db0 said:
What is blowing your mind Porkchop? All I said was that I wouldn’t try to discuss in that forum even if it was open. Why? Simple prioritization. If I get into the mood to argue I might go there, or I might go to beliefnet or wherever. I’m certainly not going to waste time fighting cencorship in every random niche forum I find on a principle. I have better things to to. I support the reason why you want to change the minds of your fellow christians but please don’t act so “holier than thou” about it.
Fair enough I shall drop the subject and down the road I will continue to try and change that rule. Sorry if I came across as arrogant never meant to come across in such a way.
Minion4Hire said:
Personally, I found it a poorly chosen quote. Pilate is petty and egotistical, but to relate that passage back to someone not caring doesn’t make a lot of sense.
Maybe it was a poorly chosen quote but what’s posted is posted. I do have to add the following though. You are right in that Pilate was very petty egotistical and petty and egotistical people usually become this way when they stop caring about life and others. (No insult intended your way Db0) I’ve run across enough people like that and as time goes on I find they lose the very passion for life and only surround themselves with trinkets and baubles thinking that’s what life is all about. What I’m ultimately trying to say is when people stop caring they begin to lose the vision of what’s important in life, and that’s all I was trying to say to Db0. Censorship as I have pointed out in one of my above posts to me is a blasphemy to God and I think it is something that should be fought everywhere.
Minion4Hire said:
There’s the rub though. In porkchop’s quote, Matthew 7:1, Jesus is saying not to judge. In the quote I referenced, John 7:24, Jesus is giving guidelines for judging. This contradiction seemed to go right over porkchop’s head, however he did illustrate in his response that he understands John 7:24
Actually it didn’t’ and you have taken the bible quote out of context. Here is the whole thing.
14Not until halfway through the Feast did Jesus go up to the temple courts and begin to teach.
15The Jews were amazed and asked, “How did this man get such learning without having studied?”
16Jesus answered, “My teaching is not my own. It comes from him who sent me.
17If anyone chooses to do God’s will, he will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.
18He who speaks on his own does so to gain honor for himself, but he who works for the honor of the one who sent him is a man of truth; there is nothing false about him.
19Has not Moses given you the law? Yet not one of you keeps the law. Why are you trying to kill me?”
20″You are demon-possessed,” the crowd answered. “Who is trying to kill you?”
21Jesus said to them, “I did one miracle, and you are all astonished.
22Yet, because Moses gave you circumcision (though actually it did not come from Moses, but from the patriarchs), you circumcise a child on the Sabbath.
23Now if a child can be circumcised on the Sabbath so that the law of Moses may not be broken, why are you angry with me for healing the whole man on the Sabbath?
24Stop judging by mere appearances, and make a right judgment.”
Basically what’s happening here is that Christ had healed on the Sabbath and because he had done this he had broken the rabbinical law of the day. The rabbinical law basically said that the Sabbath was to be kept holy and that no work was to ever be done. The law had evolved to the extreme belief that because Christ had healed on the Sabbath he had broken the rabbinical law. Christ is rebuking the crowd and telling them that their being hypocritical in if children can be circumcised on the Sabbath why couldn’t he also heal on the Sabbath? This is a key example of the ministry of Christ and the general idea is repeated throughout the gospels. Basically the stance of Christ through his ministry is that He is practicing the rabbinical law in full spirit the way it was meant to be practiced and not just legally with no real spirituality behind it. At the time of Christ the rabbinical law had developed into a huge legalistic quagmire of laws strictly adhered to and it was very much a strangling force on personal spirituality.
There is also a deeper meaning behind Stop judging by mere appearances, and make a right judgment. I said in my past post put in modern terms Christ was basically saying don’t judge a book by its cover, and he basically is. Don’t judge a book by its cover look inside and see the good that’s inside the book. There is good in everyone in this world therefore don’t judge someone by what’s on the outside look inside and see the good that’s a part of them. In the situation that’s unfolding from John 7:7-24 Christ is very much challenging the crowd to see past the legalism of the rabbinical law and look deeper into the actions that have been performed and see the good that has come from it. Hopefully this clarifies my stance.
ISos said:
Nazism wasn’t the first thing that came along to silence a population. Christianity was doing it long before Hitler came up with it, in fact, if you read Mein Kampf he modeled a lot of his ideas off of what Christainity had done in the past because he thought it was brilliant. Why am I explaining all this? Because you’re jumping to conclusions that are incorrect. You are even responding to Minion4Hire’s commentary in the same fashion as if he supports it.
That’s an interesting statement about Hitler modeling his ideas after past Christian crimes. He also wanted very much to break the church and completely overhaul the church theology. Please read this article.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_Rosenberg
By the way I’m not blind or dumb and know there was enough Christians who were card carrying Nazis of the day and I also know that enough were guilty of murder. It is very much one of the black marks of modern Christianity and the fact that the pope kept silent about it made the Catholic Church an embarrassment during the time. Rome missed its opportunity to finally demonstrate that it could walk the walk as well as talk the talk so to speak. This to me has always caused me deep sorrow. Of coarse there were those who could carry the burden and willfully accepted the duty of doing the right thing in the eyes of God.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_who_assisted_Jews_during_the_Holocaust
http://www.happynews.com/news/9182006/nun-saved-jews-wwii-beatified.htm
http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/catholic_stories/cs0058.html
In my eyes the people above were the REAL CHRISTIANS of the time. Here is another site which says the Pope did more then keep silent but personally I THINK ITS BULL. He could have done by far more in my opinion.
http://www.sistermargherita.com/Jewsdefend.htm
Here is another link that basically talks about what happened to some clergy and some of the Nazi infiltration of the church etc. I’m not trying to say my denomination is guiltless by posting these sites all I’m hoping with this just to show that there were some out there who didn’t care that the Nazis had power over them and that they had to overcome huge obstacles.
http://www.ewtn.com/library/answers/piusjews.htm
Oh by the way ISos other good reads if you want to read more on WWII would be the following books.
http://www.amazon.com/Rise-Third-Reich-William-Shirer/dp/0671728687
http://www.amazon.com/Inside-Third-Reich-Albert-Speer/dp/0684829495/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_b
http://www.amazon.com/Adolf-Hitler-Definitive-John-Toland/dp/0385420536/ref=pd_sim_b_img_2
http://www.amazon.com/Diary-Anne-Frank/dp/0330107372/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1208493486&sr=1-1
Those books are all pretty good reads. A little heads up on the last book The Diaries Of Anne Frank. That book is an excellent book and offers a incredible account of the war through the eyes of a victim but it also is a VERY DEPRESSING book so be warned when reading it.
May 31st, 2008 at 8:53 pm - Edit
I don’t get insulted by this mostly because it does not characterize me in the slightest. I have neither stopped caring about life and other nor surrounded myself with trinkets and baubles. However the fact that you have explicitly mentioned me (twice no less) shows that you have no understanding of my position on such issues.
June 2nd, 2008 at 2:21 am - Edit
It was a passing comment man meant to further expound on the passage above. It wasn’t intended to mean you. I think better of you then that, after all you have been polite to me and such, not to mention you have shown a real interest in apposing views in open discussions, so therefore I could never class you as a person described above. Your reading to much into my comments as it pertains to you. Unfortunately I have run across enough people like this in real life and usually it has its birth in not caring. You have shown an interest in discussion with me so how could I ever class you as such a person. You have given a valid enough reason in that you have to prioritize so fair enough your excuse is a valid one. By the way can I post links to various Christian books on here in my next post or is that not allowed? Do I have free reign so to speak on what I may post on here and the sources I used in my debate?
June 2nd, 2008 at 4:33 am - Edit
I guess I don’t have much of a response. Though you keep mentioning that Hitler wanted to overhaul the church (more than just in here), but that’s kind of irrelevant to my point that he was a Christian. The Catholic church today continues to embarass itself, especially in my country when they were harboring child molestor priests and not bringing them to justice. That was a huge scandal out here.
Regardless of any of those points, if the Nazis had actually won, then everyone would have said the Catholic Church made the smartest decision of it’s life for backing them. Furthermore, it doesn’t matter that some Christians opposed them. If you look at any government system, there’s always someone out there opposing it. Christian, Muslim, Hindu, whatever, just because these Christians opposed the Nazis doesn’t make them all that special for being Christian and opposing Nazism. That doesn’t have much to do with my points, because that’s just an obvious statement that not all Christians supported Nazism. Not all Germans supported it either and it’s even rumored that some Jews actually supported it! So in the great scheme of things it doesn’t really matter and it’s all a matter of perspective, if the Nazis had won Catholics would be singing a different tune about that history in time and it would be venerated as the greatest and smartest decision.
Not to sound rude, but seriously the “Diary of Anne Frank” is required reading out here. That’s just another obvious story. It’s just an okay story at best as well, but maybe I’ve seen it too many times for it to have anymore impact, not that there was much the first time. I have a couple of those other books already though, haven’t read them yet, but I’ll get to it eventually.
June 2nd, 2008 at 11:14 am - Edit
HA! Hahahahahaha…. wow. I’m sure my amusement of this sort of absolutist attitude will never cease, devoid of shades and hues, clinging to black vs white. It’s just so damned adorable! Disturbing mind you, but oddly cute all at the same time.
As far as John 7:24 goes I understand your stance, but that doesn’t change the fact that it is a simple contradiction. If the bible was truly consistent with itself he should have preached for them to not judge at all. Instead, he’s perturbed as to why they are judging him, not the fact that they are.
Yes, and I’m the only REAL Canadian. Stephen Harper is just an American in disguise.
You can say, post, or link whatever you wish. This is an open forum. We might laugh at you depending on what you post (well, I might) but you’re free to do whatever you wish.
November 15th, 2010 at 8:14 pm - Edit
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October 20th, 2011 at 4:43 pm - Edit
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