The Antichristian Phenomenon

It’s been a slow time over at the ACP. Unfortunately there doesn’t seem to be much of an activity going on around here. Perhaps I should get my cat ‘o nine tails ready to provide some…incentive.

Fortunately, in this slow period, someone decided to send us an email to explain why we go wrong. This is a historical moment as we haven’t actually received any such thing until now. I think it deserves a post of its own.

Our contact is Jonathon who by now has sent two different emails. He seems to be open to communication so in the spirit of openess, I will post the discussion here so that they rest of you might join in. I will provide the email as it was sent with my replies (which I’ve already sent back) in between. Feel free to comment on any part you wish.

Email the first

On Sun, Nov 9, 2008 at 4:36 PM, Jonathon wrote:

Hi there.

I just had my first look at your website. It isn’t as shocking as you might expect. To be anti-Christian is fairly common and trendy at present. It is a growing movement, and I don’t expect it will end any time soon, or ever for that matter.

Db0: I wouldn’t know how trendy or not it is. We did not do it for the shock, nor did we do it for the trend. We did it because we were a group of people who wished to have a way to express themselves.
You are right though, Anti-Christianity and also Atheism are growing trends that show no signs of slowing down. That is very fortunate.

Waldheri: Opposition to Christian ideals has been in existence as long as Christianity itself. It took on new heights with the Enlightenment, but Christianity was able to continue mingling with society without proper basis to this very day, and that is why people like us are still compelled to speak out. I can only hope it is growing as you say. If we ever overcome this burden of a religion, it would be the enlightenment.

The thing that does become apparent as I read through the rhetoric on the website is that there is no apparent cohesiveness or basis for an anti-Christian website or worldview. There are a lot of personal opinions and information presented from many individuals perspectives. There is a curious lack, however, of any organization or philosophy. It is simply a website for those who hate Christianity for one reason or another, to be united with others with a common belief or value.

Db0: You’re right that there is no apparent cohesiveness for as you rightly noticed this is simply a gathering place for many different opinions and beliefs, as long as they are all anti-christian. There is no basis for an Antichristian worldview because such a concept is absurd. You do not define your worldview and philosophy from a negative. Or do you base your worldview on your anti-Pagan and anti-Islam views? No, you base it on Christianity and those views sping up from there as a consequence, not a cause.

Waldheri: You should not see antichristianity as a set of beliefs, but rather as a negation of the Christian worldview. In essence, antichristians do not accept the Bible as a book of truth. All else is derived from that initial position. You can also find us speaking out against Christians who make claims thinking those claims can be defended biblically, while this is actually not the case. This is something I and others like to point out because you are free to believe whatever you want, but you should at least have a coherent set of beliefs.

Anath: I would hope one would find a variety of beliefs and viewpoints on a site like this!  Db0 and Waldheri covered it pretty well, but I would like to point out that one can believe in “god” and not have that word mean specifically your Judeo-Christian deity.  There have been a multitude of “gods” throughout history and the present, and every single one would ultimately be anti-CHRISTIAN.  Hindus, Pagans, and Jainists (etc) are all ultimately “antichristian” religions, but in a sense they are all anti-each other as well.

Well, I would like to courteously share my belief in a nutshell. God created everything that we know including man. He gave man a free will to make his own decisions. Man chose to sin and ignore God’s laws. Mankind was destined for eternal punishment. Many among us are still in this position. This is the default position of mankind due to the fall of man in the Garden of Eden. This isn’t a fairy tale. It actually happened. Thank God there is a remedy for this fallenness. God provided a means for redemption and reconciliation to Himself through the sacrifice of His Son Jesus. Jesus bore the price for our fallenness upon himself. Again, fact, not unsupported position.

Db0: Yes, yes. We’ve heard it all before. Sorry for sounding dismissing but what do you expect? I know the Christian myths well enough. And no, I do not believe they actually happened any more than I believe Earth fucked the Sky so that Kronus could come out and kick some Titan arse.

By the way, your concept on why humans are punished is ridiculous. Do you believe that children should be punished for the sins of the parents? Also, since God is omniscient, didn’t he know that man would sin beforehand? Doesn’t that make him Evil?

Waldheri: In addition to Db0’s reponse of the extravagance of God’s punishment, I would like you to consider that if we would indeed assume your God to exist, we would not choose to serve him. His laws are brutal and primitive. Especially in the last two centuries, human, secular ethics have exceeded your God’s by orders of magnitude. We have abolished slavery and made ways for criminals to give them second chances. We have begun treating women equally, and more recently we have finally started treating homosexuals the same way as heterosexuals, like we should.

Anath: Again, coming a bit late to the game, most has been said, but I would like to point this out: “Mankind was destined for eternal punishment.”  Does this not seem even the slightest bit sadistic and sick to you?  Just a teeny, tiny bit? Can you really follow that statement up with “Because God LOVES you”, and feel completely comfortable saying the two within the same sentence?  If so, you may be experiencing a severe form of masochism and to be honest I’d advise seeking professional help.

I want you to know that the facts as we know them are completely unchanged by your beliefs or mine. Whether we choose to accept the gift of salvation thorough Jesus or not has absolutely no bearing on our position as fallen mankind. However, our decision to make Jesus or Saviour puts us in a position where God can take us and place us inside His forgiveness and reconciliation. It is nothing we can earn. We have to accept our sinfulness at face value and accept salvation as a free gift.

Db0: I think you are confused. The fact is really that the Norse gods exist and are still waiting for your sacrifices and you’re well behind your quota. How do you ever expect to enter Valhalla with an attitude like this?!

Anath: Sorry, I have to say it…  Aren’t all gifts free?

It is my prayer for you, the folks at this website, that you will come to understand the freedom that comes through a relationship with Jesus Christ. It is not a life of restriction and dullness, bigotry or prejudice. A true relationship with the Creator of the universe is one of incredible revelation and true enlightenment.

Db0: Do not pray for me. Pray for the millions of little children who are killed in many horrible ways while your loving Jesus doesn’t do squat.

Waldheri: I request you do not pray for me either – not that you would have any notion of who you are exactly prayinf for. Try spending your time in more useful ways.

God created you with a specific purpose in mind, and until you are walking in this purpose, you can never know true fulfillment and peace.

Db0: Indeed, the God of Atheism created me with the purpose to spread disbelief to all humanity.

May you come to know Him soon.

Db0: I don’t think I will but I think your heart is in the right place so thanks.

Anath: I think it’s safe to say, you should save your breath and energy praying for any of us, or anyone who frequents this site.  Since we’re not accepting your “salvation” anyway, its not like its going to help.  Additionally, who are you to say that I “can never know true fulfillment and peace”?  For all you know, I have already known it… and I have.

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I was expecting an angry response to tell you the truth as I had a generally a slightly sarcastic tone. I was surprised that he was more tolerant than what I have come to expect.

Email the Second

On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 2:59 AM, Jonathon wrote:

HI there, and thank-you for replying to my email.

I appreciate the fact that, inspite of our completely polar opposite views, we can communicate.

Db0: That is always a possibility with us. Generally the refusal to communicate comes from your brothers/sisters-in-faith.
Now that we’re talking about communication, just thought I’d let you know that I’m going to post my responses to you on the site so that other Antichristians may take part in the conversation (and also improve the flow of it). You will then be able to see opinions other than mine.

What I meant in regards to the lack of basis for your anti-Christian belief is this. In order to be “ANTI” anything, you HAVE to be “PRO” for the opposing view. More specifically, if you are ANTI something, you have to have a fundamental argument for the basis of what you are “ANTI.

Db0: Actually, you do not. You can have various beliefs and desires that cumulatively make one Anti-something. For example, I am pro-skepticism, pro-humanitarianism and pro-knowledge. All of these are opposed from various aspects of Christianity and thus I have no choice but to be anti-christianity. This is the result however. Christianity does not have one opposing view. It has multiple. All other religions for a start.

Anath:  You are creating a false dichotomy here.  We also ALL have arguments for and against Christianity in our arsenal.  That is why we are here in the first place.

In terms of faith, I find it interesting how many people are anti-Christian, but don’t really know what a Biblical Christianity is. How can one be anti- something if they really don’t know what they are opposing?

Db0: I would argue that you are the one who does not really know what Biblical Christianity is. Most people are not anti-christianity but rather apathetic about it. It takes extra effort to be anti-christianity and those of us that are tend to know more about it than actual Christians.

Waldheri: I would be careful not to assume too much. You’d be surprised how well-versed we are in biblical scripture. And what if people act in antichristian ways without knowing what the christian way is? Such people serve as an example of a different mode of life that your Christian beliefs forbid or deny – Christianity’s chains against true personal freedom.

How can anyone be against taking care of orphans and widows? How can anyone be against love and compassion? How can anyone be against taking care of the poor, the sick, the hungry etc.? How can anyone be against a relationship with a loving God?

Db0: You misunderstand. We are not antichristians because we are against all those things. We are antichristians because we are pro equal rights for homosexuals, pro-feminism, pro-tolerance, pro-skepticism, pro-knowledge etc. All things your religion opposes.
We are also pro for all the things you mention (baring of course the loving God which do not believe exists) but we can be pro for those while still being antichristians.

Waldheri: You make it sound like compassion (or generally, morality) is something exclusive to Christianity. Stop deluding yourself.

Anath: There are many secular charities and aid organizations if you know where to look: SHARE, Second Harvest, WWF, Planned Parenthood(Christians hate this one), The American Cancer Society, and so on.  I didn’t even spend five minutes digging up all those links, so I’m sure with a bit of effort you could uncover many more examples of “compassionate” secular organizations.  And I will say, I would most certainly spurn a relationship with a God that placed me on this earth to be “eternally punished” as you stated yourself in the first email.  No thank you, that is most definitely not “loving” to me.

You mentioned the issue of God’s foreknowledge that mankind would sin and this makes God evil. I have kids. I know they will choose to do wrong. I do not force them to do what is right every time. I try to protect them from hurting themselves or each other and I try guide them as best I can. However. I do allow them to make choices. Of course it is always my hope and prayer that they will choose well. Often, they do. Often enough, they don’t. I hurts me to see them make poor choices.

Db0: You do not have the same power or knowledge as God does. You do not have the power to create a world where your children have free will but also do no wrong. God does or else he is not omnipotent.

For example. My wife and I took our kids hiking up in a picturesque area up in the mountains near our home. My little girl wanted to run along the path. There were tree roots all over the place and over and over I told her not to run. She would trip and fall and get hurt. Several times when she started to run, I physically held her arm and stopped her from running. She was very frustrated, and when she saw her opportunity, she took it and ran from my grasp. Seconds later she tripped and bumped her nose on the ground. I felt terrible. I DID NOT want that to happen. I wanted her to trust my wisdom. However, even though I had foreknowledge of what would happen, I allowed it. Am I evil? What do you think? I will say this. Now, when we hike that path, she is more than happy to hold my hand and experience the path from safety. I allow my children to make decisions many times, knowing they will choose poorly because I have given them all the information they need to do it right. At some point we have to let go.

Db0: Would you let go if you were having a stroll near an active volcano? Would you let go is one mistake would not just cause a scrapped knee but absolute death? How about if whatever action you child did would effect not only her but her future generations. Would you let her running around Chernobyl?
You are comparing apples and oranges. It wasn’t as if your god gave ample warning, explanations and then with a sigh let the newly made human go scrape his knee.

God warned us in the Garden that to depart from his counsel would have devastating effects. However, like a parent, God allowed us to decide. Free will. Does this make him evil? God is appalled at the state of our world. Yet for him to supernaturally prevent all suffering would be to remove our free will. No more making our own decisions. No more religious persecution which kills millions in the Middle East, China, Africa, India and many other places. No more muggings, no more rape, no more murder, no more hunger or sickness. In effect, no more effects from the fall of man in the first place. We would all be automatons, doing what we programmed to do by some supernatural dictator with no freedom to decide ANYTHING. This doesn’t sound like a great idea to me.

Db0: Your god gave a command with no reason (indeed, one would assume that eating the tree of knowledge is a good thing) to a entity that could not tell right from wrong. He gave no explanation for this. He put the fobidden action tandalizingly close to human when he could have easily hidden it. The consequences of taking that action were never explained and were much worse than what anyone would have expected for a first mistake.
Furthermore, unlike you and your child, it was within your god’s power to implant the severity of the crime into man & woman’s head so that they would weight their actions appropriately. He didn’t.

Let me give you a more appropriate example. You have a little child who does not yet reached the age of reason. You put a radioactive candy on the table, within easy reach and explicitly prohibit her to eat it. Then you go away.
Would you be considered a good or an evil parent?

Of course I know that this is all a fairy tale so I don’t judge your god too harshly with it. Why you would believe that this whole story denotes a kind and loving god however is beyond me.

Anath: “However, like a parent, God allowed us to decide. Free will.”  I was not there in the Garden.  I did not decide, some rib-woman allegedly made that choice for me and all of humanity.  I will not be held responsible for the actions of one I never associated with.  Would you blame me, personally, for the barbaric raids and feuds of my greatgreatgreatgreatgreat ancestors, the Goths, Romans, and Slavs?  Of course not.  Then why does the blame fall on me for the actions of the “ultimate” ancestor?

Plus, your “God” can’t be too appalled, he made it this way after all, and in his great omnipotence and omnipresence, he knew exactly what would happen.  If he’s not happy with it, I’d say that’s his problem for not planning properly, not ours for going according to his plan.

God created a perfect world. Man ruined it. God gave us a second chance by providing for us a way out of our sin, His Son Jesus. Now, it is up to each of us. Will we continue to reject Him? Will we choose to walk in the freedom He has provided? WE CHOOSE our response. If we choose not to serve Him, we are indeed automatons, doing what we are programmed to do, which is to sin and fall short of His purpose.

Db0: God created a world he knew was going to be ruined by his creation.
Let me show you how ridiculous your saving concept looks to us:
Your god allowed his son to die (who was really him so he in effect commited suicide) so that he might take away the punishment that himself put upon us because our far ancestors did a mistake that he could have easily prevented.

In regards to your expression of disbelief that anything in the Bible actually happened, as I mentioned before, what we believe never changes the facts. Believe it or not. God loves us, gave us a perfect world which we screwed up and now blame on Him. So He gives us a second chance. His Son. Now, we decide

Db0: Well, believe it or not, your god doesn’t exist. You’re wasting your time. Fact. What else can I say about this?

By the way, what is the purpose or advantage of spreading disbelief? You have acknowledged the misery in our world. Do you want to take away the one hope that mankind has, or be a part of the solution?

Db0: You took my joke too seriously. I do not really spread disbelief as I do not think that simply turning people into atheists is a solution. I know many atheists with which I wouldn’t be able to cooperate at all.
Just because a thing is a hope, does not make it true. And it is not the only hope. People believe in other religions in case you missed it. And they also have false hopes even if they are irreligious. And they can also have hope if they are irreligious as well. Like we do.

I do pray everyday for the situations around the world where innocent people suffer.

Db0: And that’s why situations are the world do not change. Praying is the only way to do nothing and think you’re helping.

What is important to keep in mind is that Earth is temporary. Someday, all of this will pass away. While we are here, we have a responsibility to act in accordance with the will of a loving God. Someday, this will all be gone, and then what? How depressing would it be to think that this is as good as it gets? You are born, suffer for 75 or 80 years, and then its over. Where is the sense in that. God wants us in paradise with Him and made the way clear. I know where I’ll be when I get where I’m going.

Db0: Actually it’s not depressing at all. It actually gives people hope to know that this is all there is and we actually have a hand in making it better. And when I pass away, well, I won’t be there to be sad about it so who cares?

Just because you want there to be something more does not mean there will be. It is actually a big problem I have with religion where instead of helping make the only chance at life we have better for everyone, they waste their time in prayer or useless activities.

Waldheri: I would argue people who don’t believe in an afterlife are more aware of the fact that at some point our existence will cease than those who believe there is an afterlife. It is a motivation to make the best out of life – whatever that may be depending on your personal philosophy. Why do you so quickly accept the notion that there should somehow be an innate purpose to our lives? Have you considered the possibility that there isn’t? But that doesn’t mean we “are born, suffer for 75 or 80 year” and then die. We can give purpose and meaning to our lives.

Anath: The thought that life is “only” 75-80 years (if you are lucky) is far from depressing.  It is enlightening and empowering.  I also have little desire to spend more than that amount of time on this plane anyway, and when my time comes, I will welcome death with a smile; the final journey, even if it is into the abyss of nothing.  Perhaps you would be surprised to read about the variety of cutures globally who actually worship death?

Also, you are lying out of every orifice in your body:  You do NOT know where you are going when you die.  No one does, and even your own Bible tells you that you can not know for certain.  If someone tries to tell you with certainty what happens after death or “what God wants”, they are selling something.

I will continue to pray for those affected by this website including you, my unnamed friend.

Db0: You’re saying it as if we’re a disease. Well, in some parts we are. We do spread the anti-christianity meme, same way you spread your Christianity mind-virus.

Just for your reference, I am a contractor. I build things and do concrete work. I still have connections in law enforcement and play hockey and work out. I have a wife, two kids and a dog. I drive a Dodge truck. I am just like anybody else on the planet. I just have a vibrant and growing relationship with a living God like millions of others. It is more important to me to have relationships with other people and share the hope of the Gospel then it is to make a million bucks. However, I need to make a living as well.

Db0: I did not judge you Jonathon. I do not know why you felt the need to explain all of this to me. I’m certain you’re a hard working person, like we all are. The only difference is that I think you’re wasting too much time on useless things and you are promoting something which is not good for humanity as a whole.

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And that was the latest exchange. I am eagerly now waiting for further contact from Jonathon and hopefully he’ll be willing to comment here instead where point-by-point discussion is much more easier to have.

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