The Antichristian Phenomenon

Yes, I do agree and think that we are more a product of 'extrapersonal' conditions than our own volition, even though it is often hard to see it is so. However, I also agree with the article that in the very least, some fundamentals of the Christian religion (or even all three Abrahamic religions) work especially well in the brainwashing scheme that is presented. Perhaps it is partly the reason why these three religions have been able to permeate and dominate societies on an almost global level.

People who promote this religion needn't even consciously go for a brainwashing scheme (which I think is very rare), but the teachings and mindset themselves are what allow for easy meme infection.

"1. The first step to brainwashing is to attack the subject’s sense of self, or identity. Since a child is developing his/her sense of self within the context of the religious teachings, this step is fulfilled by default, as there is no prior sense of self to overcome".

This step is not fulfilled by default…If it is a step to brainwashing then it isnt fulfilled at all. And if it is, then all aspects of life are built upon this premise…hence EVERYONE is brainwashed into believing something, be it religion or any other subject matter.

"2. Christianity is built upon the concept of guilt. We sinful creatures must be redeemed from the sinful nature we inherited, that was passed down through the generations from Adam and Eve. So, the second step, which is guilt is obviously fulfilled."

Christianity is built upon the message of Christ, which was Faith, Hope & Love. And again, the concept of guilt can be applied to MULTIPLE aspects.

I agree completely with what you are saying in this post. My jaw drops every time I hear a Christian talk about "those crazy cults" as though Christianity is so clearly not one. It doesn't get an exemption just for being a very popular cult!

I just wonder, what can we do to help people who have been brainwashed. That would be our first course of action if we found out that a friend had joined something like Heaven's Gate, or even Amway or something like that — try to get them to see what's happening, see that they are being manipulated and lied to. But how can we broach that subject with Christians? I've never had any luck trying to point out this phenomenon to them.

“Chad, if there is no prior sense of self, and the current sense of self is being established in an atmosphere of incessant pounding of the docrine of the child’s intrinsic guilt simply by association, and general state of being evil, how does this not fulfill this first step”.

Because you’re changing the fundamental definition of brainwashing in order to agree with you’re assertion. Let’s simplify this. Consider the basic meaning of the term, brain”WASHING”. Metaphorically meaning to wash away what was previously in place and replace it with something else. If nothing is there beforehand then WHATEVER you’re taught as a child (regardless of what it is), establishes your initial sense of identification. I understand you may be speaking from your own personal experiences, but your experience cannot be used to villify an entire group of millions. If it did then that would include me as well, and I certainly wasn’t taught ANYTHING like what you described, nor have a taught my son anything like that.

Regardless of what you think, Christs message was faith, hope & love. Its in the Bible…ie, love thy enemies, turn the other cheek, etc…that IS the fundamental premise of Christianity. That isn’t to say there haven’t been and still aren’t wack jobs out there who aren’t guilty of what you describe, because there certainly is.

So far as the concept of guilt goes….You decided against objectivity by asserting that all of Christianity is guilty of brainwashing children. And since I identify with Christianity; that includes me as well. Therefore you are attacking my sense of self by falsley accusing me of being guilty of something for which I know that I am not.(Or as you call it..”Intrinsic Guilt”). To make such an accusation “without any evidence to support it is outside of objective reality”.(Your words) So who is guilty of brainwashing?

Whether you believe it or not, your entire argument is, at best, self defeating, while, at worst, hypocritical.

You misinterpret me completely. I suppose in the case of Amway, there is actual evidence that the business proposal they are being handed is not as profitable as it is claimed, that it is actually supremely unprofitable for the vast majority of people who join it. There is evidence that it is a scam. If I had a friend who thought Amway was great, I would try to convince them that Amway was awful. I would hardly call that "brainwashing" though.

In the case of religion, I would never claim that there is absolute proof that God does not exist or that any religion's supernatural claims are not true. I have not looked everywhere for heaven yet, so I can't promise that it's not there — and by the time I check everywhere, it'll have been a long time since I looked in the first few places so I'll have to start all over again. I would just hope that people would refrain from believing unsubstantiated claims. I'm not looking to replace those claims with anything.

Unless you are suggesting that I want to "brainwash them" to understand the value of evidence and logical reasoning. At which point having any kind of logical argument really becomes impossible — so I doubt that is what you are going for. But one never knows.

“It seems to me that your entire argument here is just nitpicking about one possible connotation of the word “brainwashing,” that makes you have a hard time imagining it being done to a “fresh” mind that didn’t have its own ideas beforehand. This is not a dispute about the actual content, just a quibble with the term used to encapsulate the entire idea”

No..it is in fact about the actual content because it falsely misrepresents a group of millions. The author of this topic is using his own life experiences in an effort to show what he experienced as being the end all be all of Christianity. One of the criteria he noted for brainwashing was an attack on the individuals sense of self by asserting a false accusation of guilt with no evidence to support it. Yet he doesn’t see that’s exactly what he himself is doing to people like me..who identify with the Christian religion, yet none of the things he asserts happened to me, nor have I done any such thing to my child, or anyone else for that matter. Even your terminology is wrong..I wasn’t brainwashed, nor was I “aggressively indoctrinated from birth”.

If you’re referring to the concept of original sin..then yes. But no amount of indoctrination or brainwashing can change that. The Bible also makes it clear that we all have free will. Our choices are ours to make. God does not force anyone to worship and/or obey him. But again…that does not equate to what is described by the author of this topic.

You’re trying to build a straw-man, and a pretty weak one at that. I didn’t say I’ve never been falsely attacked. I said my sense of self was not attacked by my parents, or any other person in an attempt to indoctrinate me into Christianity. Let me also remind you that the basis of the topic is the psychological “Act” of brainwashing supposedly done to helpless children by adults.

“You taught your child, from as soon as they could understand what you were saying, that a man made out of dirt and a woman made out of a man’s rib ate some fruit in a magical garden because a talking snake told them to. But a magical sky man didn’t want them to eat that fruit, even though he put it right there in front of them and didn’t give them the knowledge to understand that it was good to obey his commands”

Yet again, another unsupported argument. I never said what I’ve taught my child. Although you apparently know what I’ve taught him? I certainly have never used the term “Talking Snake”. However, your doing so only further reveals your lack of understanding of the Bible…the term “Snake” is never used, nor does it say anything about eating fruit. Don’t believe me? Go back and take a closer look at Genesis and see what it says.

The term "snake" is sometimes used, and "serpent" is used in other translations. Please see here if you really think "the term 'Snake' is never used." http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genes…
And I have no idea why you think it is legitimate to say, "nor does it say anything about eating fruit." Perhaps you are the one who should reread Genesis. KJV, NIV, and ESV all discuss the eating of "fruit" in Genesis 3.

To say that you, immediately upon being born, were a sinner — that you never had any innocence — that you are innately bad to the foundations of your being no matter what your choices or your personality or beliefs — I cannot imagine that that does not attack your sense of self. The idea that you are so bad that you deserve eternal hellfire, unless you get lucky enough for God to decide to forgive you for being such a worthless bit of slime … that is a terrifying thought at any age, but especially for children.

I make no assumptions about what you have taught your child, by the way. You were the one who wrote: "yet none of the things he asserts happened to me, nor have I done any such thing to my child, or anyone else for that matter." You were explaining how the post's claims about Christianity and Christians were untrue. You were the one who told me you were bringing your child up Christian. Either that, or your writing is extraordinarily unclear.

Your dispute of this being a "false" accusation just collapses the debate to whether or not Christianity is true, and/or whether the Bible is an authoritative document. I've talked to a lot of Christians and read a whole lot on the subject, and I've never come across any compelling, external justification for the validity of the claims of Christianity. It all reads like: "The Bible is true because it is the word of / inspired by God. God must exist, because the Bible says he does. And the Bible's true, I know that because it's God's word." Ad nauseam. You can't just say "it's a fact" and pretend you've proven your point. Well, you can, but it's just more evidence that you have in fact been brainwashed.

Cult as in what definition? Cult should preferably be understood as a religious movement without any formal hierarchy or leadership. I frankly do not understand what you mean by "cult" here.

Uh, what? Why do you think that cults don't have formal hierarchy or leadership? Have you heard the term "cult leader"?

I'm sorry that my clarification seems to have made things less clear, though. I just meant to acknowledge that by "cult" I meant, "a group which brainwashes its members" — the popular understanding of a cult, basically.

Well, I go from a scientific definition. I think your "cult leader" is to me just a charismatic leader, which can appear in any religious groups. It doesn't mean that the members actually got any direct contact with the leader, though, so I still don't see what makes your argument of a cult valid. The problem is that your definition of a "cult" can be anything from a denomination to a sect. This makes the definition itself very troublesome, because the idea of whether there is brainwashing going on is often very subjective.

Basically you can say to any person who is religious and is a part of a religious group that "I think you are undergoing brainwashing!" to which they would most likely retort that "No, I am not", to which it is very easy to reply to that "The fact that you aren't aware of it is proof that there is brainwashing going on!". I shouldn't have to point out why this reasoning is fallacious.

"The term "snake" is sometimes used, and "serpent" is used in other translations. Please see here if you really think "the term 'Snake' is never used." http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genes…

Genesis 3:1 – Now the Serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field" etc…

There are many versions of the bible out there that supposedly make it easier to understand. Unfortunately these can be very misleading. They take terminology from thousands of years ago and apply modern words. Yes, the common (modern day) understanding of the word "serpent" would be "snake". However, the term "Serpent" is translated from the Hebrew word "Nachash", which was used in the original text and means "To Shine", or "Shining One". i.e. Satan appeared to Eve as a beautiful, and/or shining individual.

"The point was that if you believe in Original Sin, then you must also admit that all humans are instrinsically bad. This means that we can never become good people even if we try. Which in turn means that it does attack our sense of self into a negative picture, since most people would like to think of themselves in a good light. '

LeaT – I dont mean to split hairs here but Original Sin, and Intrinsically Bad are two completely different terms with two completely different meanings.

Care to give a source on that?

Well, a quick Google seach reveals that it's based on King James, which immediately makes it questionable.

OK… I'm back to dumb shit down for you guys… again

Now on the issue of brainwashing; as an adult that has had to endure some pretty horrible shit. I have had Christians from work trying to brainwash me; and I have never really be religiously orientated. They have basically told me that if I do not believe in Christ, then I will burn in hell 'For Ever'. Fucking hell they made me angry. My father killed himself, and he was not of Christian faith, so by their reasoning; he will be burning in hell forever; because, by my understanding… he was a hardworking decent human being, that cared for his family and put them first and foremost before himself. Now after his death I have had these Christian fucking fanatics trying to tell me what they think of my father. And they do try to brainwash people, I actually felt fear when they brought forth their views. They attack people on a spiritual level.

But thankfully I have friends that gave me just a couple of threads of logic that blasted their dogma into nothingness.

Trust me when I say this; these Christian fanatics are very sly. They come up with any bullshit to try to break you down.

DON'T FUCKING BELIEVE IT… PLEASE

SAVE YOURSELF BY BEING YOURSELF.

P.S. and if I have to go to hell to meet my father again… then so be it… I should have told him I loved him before he died.

You have no point. All you do is nitpick and try to worm your way out of arguements by picking one part of someone's retort rather than taking it as a whole. Quit trying to argue with these guys if you are going to do that, it really makes you look bad from a 3rd party perspective.

read a book
"ask and it is given" by esther and jerry hicks
there is a lot that is explained about the nature of
reality within this book