Popular agnosticism versus proper agnosticism
Posted by: Waldheri in Philosophy, tags: Agnosticism, atheism, epistemology, gnosticism, knowledge, TheismAgnosticism seems very popular at the moment. I think it is mostly so for the wrong reasons. I get the feeling that a lot of people who identify themselves as agnostics are doing so only to take a kind of moral high ground that, to them, equivocates with a neutral position on the issue at hand. I have seen many agnostics say something like this:
You can’t prove that God exists, nor that God doesn’t exist, therefore both theism and atheism are wrong and you should be agnostic
I find three things at fault with this position, which I will elaborate on in the following paragraphs. I will sometimes refer to above position as “popular agnosticism” to distinguish it from actual agnosticism. I will end with what a proper application of agnosticism might be, but also argue why I think it’s pretty useless all-round.
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Agnosticism is not a position on the existence of God
It seems that agnosticism has been snuck in to form a trilemma on the issue of God’s existence. To many people, the possible positions on this issue are either atheism, theism, or agnosticism. This is a false trilemma for two reasons. Firstly, because no ground is left over for agnosticism. You either believe God exists (theism), or you don’t (a-theism – I emphasize on purpose). So what is left over? Nothing! This has to do with the second reason that it is a false trilemma, namely the untrue notion that agnosticism even is a position on the existence of God. It simply isn’t, as it is a position on what knowledge is attainable. Going a little bit into etymology, “gnosis” means “knowledge” which means that “agnosticism” can be roughly translated to the position that something is not knowable. Agnosticism can be compatible with both atheism and theism – I don’t accept theism but I don’t claim to know that theism is false: I am an agnostic atheist.
Agnosticism isn’t somewhere in the middle on the spectrum between atheism and theism. I would even argue that there isn’t a spectrum at all on this level of the issue. There is a simple proposition: “God exists”, and you can either agree (theism) or not (atheism). There are no other positions, by virtue of the logical principle of the excluded middle. Both theism and atheism are positions that one can have, and it doesn’t matter how good or bad the reasons are for you having them.
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Popular agnosticism is used for dodging the question
So now that we have established that agnosticism isn’t even a tenable position in regards to the existence of God, it will become increasingly difficult to critique the position because the original paraphrase I gave is making less and less sense. At the moment, we can substitute the definition of agnosticism into the citation and read:
You can’t prove that God exists, nor that God doesn’t exist, therefore both theism and atheism are wrong and you should have the position that it is unknowable whether God exists or not
But that shows another flaw, because (a)theism isn’t necessarily the belief that God’s existence is (dis)proven. It thus misrepresents the positions of theism and atheism, and shows perhaps a reluctance to commit to either theism or atheism. I do not believe anyone can be exactly on the fence between the two possible positions. Even if it is just a gut feeling, you can choose between the two. It is childish to say “no, I won’t choose either of the possibilities”. And of course there is no proof, as I have previously written and explained that proofs only exist in formal systems. Personally, I think a lot of people who identify themselves as agnostics because they are reluctant to bear the stigma of the atheist. Though I understand this, I still think it is a form of cowardice.
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Popular agnosticism is special pleading
Popular agnosticism is also a form of special pleading, as it is only used with reference to the issue of God’s existence. You don’t hear about faerie agnostics, or Santa Clause agnostics. Popular agnosticism is used uniquely for the God-question. But why is it so? There are no grounds on which the question “Does God exist?” is different from the question “Does Santa Clause exist?” other than the subject of the inquiry. You can’t prove Santa Clause exists, or that he doesn’t exist any more than it is the case with God. Why then still reserve this for God? It is blatantly a case of special pleading.
Proper agnosticism
So when is it useful to have a position of agnosticism? First of all, we have to have a decent definition of when something is considered knowledge - before we can say whether something is possible to be an item in what we consider knowledge. What is knowledge is is a question home to the philosophical field of epistemology, and very briefly I can ambiguously suggest that knowledge is the product of empirical investigation and rational discourse of the empirical results. Knowledge doesn’t even have to be complete – as long the knowledge fits whatever observations have been made so far, and are reasonably not the antithesis of other knowledge that is “better established” – and it can even turn out after more observation that prior knowledge is false and that it requires to be superseded with new knowledge: a new set of ideas, rules, or paradigm (knowledge isn’t necessarily true). It is perhaps shortest to say that knowledge is produced by science, the best application of the aforementioned methodology.
This is different from the stricter requirement in the original paraphrase, which demanded proof and not mere evidence. If we were to say that knowledge needs proof to be established, then we are agnostic about everything outside of formal systems. To me, such a requirement of knowledge renders agnosticism as a useless term that communicates nothing because it can be applied to (almost) everything. So if we were to take my understanding of knowledge, we can say that agnosticism can apply only to things that fall outside of the scope of science: outside of empirical investigation. If we can not empirically pursue a question then we can’t produce knowledge about it: we are agnostic about it.
An example of proper agnosticism is when “God” is defined as something that would prohibit scientific inquiry. If God is a being who is omnipotent, it is immediately outside the scope of science, because this God can play with the empirical evidence all it wants. Anything and nothing can be indicative of the existence of such a being. Hence, we are inherently agnostic about it. Parallel to agnosticism about this, I have never heard any argument that would make such a being logically necessary to exist, hence I am also atheistic towards it. But when you would suggest that “God” is a bearded man living on clouds in the sky, it is open to scientific inquiry. There has never been seen such a man, thus I am a gnostic atheist about this particular concept.
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The Antichristian Phenomenon



December 31st, 2009 at 2:06 pm - Edit
This is the mos brilliant analysis of the topic I have ever read.
Next time someone tells me to prove that God doesn't exist, I'll simply ask them to prove that Santa Claus doesn't exist. If they confess that the existence of Santa Claus cannot be proven or dis-proven, I will label them 'Santa Claus agnostics'.
Thank you for giving me extra ammunition in my battle against creationism.
January 5th, 2010 at 3:50 pm - Edit
Well… that being said. I don't think that the easter bunny exists either. So if there is actually a god within our universe, then he is subject to the laws of our universe. And he is not eternal… he will die when the universe dies. And maybe god is just as human, and mortal, as the rest of us are. So why worship something that is just an imperfect being as we are? I dunno… maybe people just have to learn to think for themselves. Maybe that's what your god wants… companions, not slaves.
Dunno, have a think about it though.
January 6th, 2010 at 8:27 am - Edit
Did you even read the article? I don't see how your comment is relevant.
January 7th, 2010 at 4:27 pm - Edit
nah I dun read none to good… but anyways… why are people becoming Irreligious? Because they have discovered that blind faith does not produce answers. As a race… a human race, we have always been inquisitive. We live to learn I guess. And when we do the math on some of the crap that is being shoveled our way, we find that there are discrepancies in it. So we want to figure out why. Now… the church does not want us to figure out why, because they will lose money and power.
So I ask you, why do you think people want proof that god exists? I say… because most sensible people don't like to walk into situations blind. It all comes down to nature and the survival instinct, and the institutions control, over that instinct. If they can remove survival instinct from people, then they get a new suicide bomber that they can direct anywhere they want. However if that person actually thought for themselves, they would not be so willing to throw their life away. This is why we need evidence.
I don't really think I'm taking any moral high ground here, I'm just asking for proof. And I can see blind faith for what it is… Blind.
January 14th, 2010 at 6:35 pm - Edit
[...] Popular agnosticism versus proper agnosticism (antichristian-phenomenon.com) [...]
January 30th, 2010 at 4:04 pm - Edit
This was well articulated but stupid nonetheless. To say you have to believe or not believe, you cannot be in middle. Who the hell knows if there is a God or not? No one. Using big words does not make one intelligent.
January 30th, 2010 at 4:53 pm - Edit
Why is it stupid? I thought I was pretty explicit, but let me put it this way: I can claim not to believe in God and I can claim not to know whether God exists or not. They are not contradictory statements. I treat theism as a proposition, and a proposition is always either true or false. That means no middle ground. If you aren't convinced of theism, you are de facto without theism: a-theist. That doesn't mean you know there is no God.
January 31st, 2010 at 3:23 pm - Edit
Wald -
Correct me if I’m either wrong, or misunderstood your original point…but I thought agnosticism didn’t require the identification of any particular “God” per se? I thought agnostics simply believed in a higher being? The identity of that being is what they claim to not know. My experience with agnostics has shown that most reject the God of the bible, but also reject the attempted explanations offered by science, naturalism, materialism and so on….
February 2nd, 2010 at 8:20 pm - Edit
Agnosticism roughly means "not knowing". When people answer the question whether they believe in a God, they usually mean they don't know, which I am arguing here is an impossible and useless position to take. Agnostics can believe in a higher being. You can be agnostic about anything. For most definitions of God, I am an agnostic atheist. For some, I am a gnostic atheist – I claim to know that particular version of God does not exist, for example due to logical inconsistency. Another example: I am an agnostic theist with regards to the pantheistic god. I just think using "god" to mean "the universe" is doesn't add anything, so I don't use that terminology.
It seems that the people who call themselves agnostics don't actually know what it means, in your case.
February 3rd, 2010 at 2:33 am - Edit
While I appreciate the author's point, one unsupported premise in the argument, that I say requires support, is that one must believe or disbelieve in a god. Agnosticism means, as has been said over and over, that one does not profess to have sufficient knowledge concerning the existence of a god to make a decision. As such, I am an agnostic atheist (when pressed to make the distinction that is-otherwise I am just agnostic) because I do not live my life as though there were a god. Nevertheless, I do not live my life as though there were not a god either. I simply live my life as I see fit, because I have no knowledge that says I should do otherwise. However, I find this distinction to be a fine splitting of a hair. If I say that I am agnostic, I am saying that I am delaying making a decision until there is more data available to inform my choice. Despite the author's contention, which is erroneous by the reason submitted at the beginning of my rant, I am an agnostic concerning the existence of any god at any time, if for no other reason than I have not investigated, and do not wish to take the time to investigate, the claims of existence of every single imaginable god. I submit that it is intellectually irresponsible to dismiss out of hand what one has not personally researched.
February 3rd, 2010 at 8:20 am - Edit
"God exists" is a proposition. A proposition is always either true or false. You can either be convinced of it's veracity or not. If someone doesn't have a notion of what "God" is, that person is by default an atheist. If someone claims not to have sufficient knowledge to accept the premise as true, that someone is by definition an atheist. What data do you expect to find of a non-existent being?
Similarly, "I live my life as if there were a god" is also a proposition. It can be either true or false. You can't not live your life as if there were a god and at the same time not live your life as if there were not a god. It's logically impossible!
February 3rd, 2010 at 1:48 pm - Edit
Here you say…
"When people answer the question whether they believe in a God, they usually mean they don't know, which I am arguing here is an impossible and useless position to take"
One can argue that its uselss, but thats nothing more than supposition. But why is it impossible? If science and/or philosophy has taught us anything its that the unknown must remain possible unless proven otherwise.
"I claim to know that particular version of God does not exist, for example due to logical inconsistency".
Not to split hairs here, but logical inconsistency doesn't necessarily disprove something. I would venture to say that even you accept certain things that contain logical inconsistencies? " Therefore I could make the same claim using that same line of reasoning…no?
It seems that the people who call themselves agnostics don't actually know what it means, in your case".
LOL…Am I the only one who see's the irony in this statement? Does that mean one can be an agnostic when it comes to agnosticism?
February 3rd, 2010 at 2:40 pm - Edit
I guess when you get to the root of this straw-man, you are correct. But by your reasoning, we are ALL agnostics, regardless of what we claim to know or not know (or better yet…believe or not to believe)….Atheist, Pantheist, or Theist; all of these positions require "Faith" in something eternal; be it an eternal, free standing material universe, or an eternal creator of a non-eternal universe. Neither of which ANY OF US can claim to know. This is why there is a line of separation between belief, and knowledge.
February 3rd, 2010 at 2:48 pm - Edit
Then you should post a topic titled "Popular vs Proper Atheism", because I've heard countless atheists say with total confidence "There is No God", Or…"Science has disproven God"…The former is unknown, and the latter is just flat wrong…Even you agree with me on this one, because as you said in another post…God doesnt fall within the realm of science. (Not sure if thats verbatim or not..I think you were referring to the omnipotent characteristic of God, or something like that)
February 3rd, 2010 at 3:51 pm - Edit
"Impossible" may have been a bad choice of words, but I mean the impossibility of answering "agnostic" to "what are you with regards to the existence of god". That's what I'm trying to argue: you are either theist or atheist, and you can be gnostic or agnostic about those two possible outcomes. It is not an answer in itself.
I don't know about you, but if something is logically inconsistent it can't exist. Square circles are the prime examples. I may have beliefs that are logically inconsistent, but that I hold them may simply mean that I have not uncovered this logical inconsistency. If I do see a logical inconsistency in my beliefs, I must go back to the drawing board.
February 3rd, 2010 at 3:56 pm - Edit
Yes, I was thinking of doing a post on atheism on a philosophical level like this article. The position in the first case is gnostic atheism, which I reserve for very specific definitions of God. I do agree that science has not disproved some conceptions of God, first of all because science can't prove anything and secondly because these conceptions of God fall outside of the scope of science.
February 3rd, 2010 at 5:20 pm - Edit
Waldheri, you said "You can't not live your life as if there were a god and at the same time not live your life as if there were not a god". That makes absolutely no sense to me. Your use of a double negative in both clauses is confusing as hell. I am assuming you meant to say that you can't live your life as if there is a god, and live your life as if there is no god at the same time. I agree with that statement. That would be a contradiction. However, my point was that one can live one's life without any reference to a god whatsoever.
You are also correct in saying that god exists is a proposition that must either be true or false. However, what you fail to see in your analysis is that this state of being a proposition does not extend to one's belief in the truth or falsehood of the proposition. The act of believing is necessarily a meta-state in relation to the proposition. My saying that I am agnostic is that I do not choose to make a conclusive opinion on the proposition. By what reasoning do you claim that I cannot be in a state of limbo between belief and disbelief?
February 3rd, 2010 at 5:46 pm - Edit
Yes, you're right – I did screw up the syntax there. I am trying to say what you think I am saying. One can indeed live one's life without any reference to a god. It doesn't take away the fact that I could denote that lifestyle as atheistic.
Look at it this way. I can divide all people in those who have accepted theism, and those who haven't. The latter one, I call atheists. If you are not sure, but certainly not convinced of theism, you are by definition a-theist. Belief and disbelief are two complementary states of mind; you can't be in them both, but you also can't not be in either of them.
I'm undecided about certain definitions of "God" as well, but because I have not made a choice yet, I am by default a(n agnostic) atheist. about these particular definitions of
Thanks for replying, I hope this clarification was useful for you.
February 3rd, 2010 at 6:47 pm - Edit
atheism |ˈāθēˌizəm|
noun
the theory or belief that God does not exist.
theism |ˈθēˌizəm|
noun
belief in the existence of a god or gods, esp. belief in one god as creator of the universe, intervening in it and sustaining a personal relation to his creatures. Compare with deism .
I do not believe that god does not exist. Neither do i believe that a particular god does exist. I believe that I don't know, and neither do you. I don't fit either of these definitions. Therefore, I must be in some other group. That group is agnostic by definition. You still haven't supported the idea that one must either believe or disbelieve. You have simply asserted that it is the case, over and over.
February 3rd, 2010 at 6:52 pm - Edit
Yeah yeah, it's easy to select the definition one wants. I could easily choose the definition that Atheism means the lack of belief in a deity, which makes it compatible with Agnosticism in the form of Agnostic Atheism.
February 3rd, 2010 at 7:52 pm - Edit
I find dictionary definitions to be severely lacking, especially in philosophical context. I am willing to accept the one for theism, which I will use, but not the one for atheism, which to me is the source of your problem of non-classification. You're also right, I've merely asserted belief and disbelief are complementary to each other. Allow me to take a step back and say that "I am a theist" is a proposition, which is by definition (axiomatically) either true or false. You did accept that, so forget about the belief and disbelief comments I left. So here goes my argument, formally:
D1: Theism – the belief in the existence of a god or gods.
P1: You are a theist
C1: If P1 is true, you believe in the existence of god or gods.
C2: If P2 is false, you do not believe in the existence of god or gods – you either (a) lack the belief in the existence of god or gods, or you (b) believe that god or gods do not exist.
All I am arguing, is that (a) and (b) are both, by virtue of P1 being a proposition, atheist positions. I can't think of any other way to express this.
February 3rd, 2010 at 9:53 pm - Edit
You summarily reject the definition of atheist that I have submitted, and looked up at random? On what grounds do you reject this definition? How do you suppose the average person on the street would define atheism? If one does not make a distinction between degrees of atheism, i.e. strong and weak atheism, then one would likely assume that the speaker is a strong atheist. I submit that it is a clearer distinction for a weak atheist to be labeled as an agnostic, because this is in fact what a weak atheist is. One who doesn't believe in a deity, but also allows that one may exist. If you wish to label me a weak atheist, that would be fine. But, I think that it is a much clearer and more useful designation to call me agnostic. Or, if it is tainted beyond usage in that way, come up with another label that means the same thing. I am especially so, because I truly am between belief and disbelief without committing to either. How can you call that a form of cowardice, when it is an intellectual decision of a forward agnostic, who is looked at very similarly to an atheist? What am I afraid of?
Also, there is no P2 in your formal argument. I assume you are referring to P1 there? You have completely ignored my request for proof that belief and unbelief could not be a spectrum with an uncommitted middle. Your insistence that they are absolutes is not supported. The belief is separate from the objective truth or untruth of the proposition. Therefore your point about the properties of a proposition do not necessarily apply.
February 9th, 2010 at 6:50 pm - Edit
I see what you are saying by either theist, or atheist, and how agnostic can be used as a cop-out. I will proudly claim to be an agnostic, and this is why. I am a theist, I believe the the universe was created by plan and not by accident or chance. The stories sold to me by any relegion having anything to do with the middle east, or virgin births or blood sacrifices for salvation, or those requiring the surrender of reason and freewill, these are all false prophets. So I claim agnosticism because I choose to believe there is a spiritual right and a spiritual wrong, and all the gimmicks and snake-oil being sold by any church is pure bullshit. Therefore, I am a thiest who does not believe in the primative gods of post-cavemen, but nor am I so arrogant to say I am my own creator. Henceforth, I am agnostic.
February 9th, 2010 at 7:17 pm - Edit
But what you just described is Deism, not Agnosticism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism
February 9th, 2010 at 10:13 pm - Edit
"On what grounds do you reject this definition?"
This one: "One who doesn't believe in a deity, but also allows that one may exist."
If you don't believe in a deity, you are an atheist (a-without theos-gods). It doesn't matter if you allow for their existence, you don't believe in them. I'm not sure where you got your original definition, but dictionary.com says "a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings." "Disbelief in the existence of supreme beings" is vastly different than "belief that God does not exist."
February 10th, 2010 at 6:10 pm - Edit
Thanks. Now that I have identification, I can completely agree with the above argument.
May 27th, 2010 at 8:05 pm - Edit
Hmmm. This has given me some food for thought. I typically identify as an atheist leaning agnostic. I'm going to re-evaluate as you have given me much to ponder.
May 28th, 2010 at 8:35 am - Edit
I'm glad I've given you some food for thought, and that you are openminded enough to re-evaluate your own position. We need more people like you.
May 28th, 2010 at 10:54 pm - Edit
How can you believe in something which you don't even think has any chance in remotely existing, then? When I claim that I am a pantheist, I do it because I do have a firm belief that the energy flow which I perceive to make up this world exists, not because I am unsure it doesn't. There is also a fine line admitting that you might be wrong and doubting you are right.
May 29th, 2010 at 7:57 am - Edit
What is this "energy flow" you speak of? Of course, there is energy in the universe, and it traverses distance in the form of quanta. Quantum mechanics will tell you all about energy packets.
May 29th, 2010 at 5:18 pm - Edit
Unfamiliar with the terminology, but it sounds about right.
May 29th, 2010 at 9:25 pm - Edit
To equate the existence of God (which you deny to undo creationism) with that of Santa Claus (a non-deity) is apples and oranges comparison. Inability to prove the existence of Santa Claus is no argument to disprove or prove God as existent. Sorry, your ammunition is blank bullets.
May 29th, 2010 at 9:58 pm - Edit
So why tag "theism" onto it? What's theistic about your worldview, if it is nothing more than an equivalent to nature? Or do you attribute some kind of consciousness to it?
In other words: please elaborate on what "pantheism" means to you (other than "energy flow" because that's a bit weird if you replace it with any other natural phenomenon, like "electromagnetic fields" – unless there is a reason why "energy flow" is somehow special?)
May 30th, 2010 at 8:36 am - Edit
Well, replace Santa Clause with any other deity of your choosing, like Thor. The point I was making in the article was that "agnosticism" tells you something about knowledge, and that it can apply to more than just "god", but that it isn't used in that fashion.
May 30th, 2010 at 3:17 pm - Edit
You keep getting hung up on the "theism" part. The problem is that to me there is no real equivalent word in the English language. Wikipedia has a good article about it. I do not like the fact that the word has "theism" in it, but there's little I can do about it unless I would start calling myself an atheist, which I won't. I use it in lack of a better phrasing without getting too longwinded. To me, pantheism is not about a sentient being (which we already discussed quite some), and I think that's counterintuitive to what pantheism attempts to express, so I am not quite sure why you keep getting hung up on it either. It is a linguistical issue, not necessarily related to my personal beliefs.