Proof and evidence
Posted by: Waldheri in Philosophy, tags: epistemology, evidence, formal systems, God, logic, Philosophy, Proof, Science, scientific evidenceI often come across statements like the following: “Prove x” or “Prove not x” – most often in the form “Prove God exists” or “Prove God doesn’t exist” (I will be using this example throughout the article). I get a bit tired about this because people do not seem to understand when something can be proven, when it can’t be, what the restrictions of evidence are and when something is a scientific question or not.
Proof yields certainty within a formal system
There is no such thing as proof in the context of every-day life. A proof is something by which we can say something is definitely so, or definitely not so. This means 100% certainty. So how does one get 100% certainty? The history of epistemology, the philosophy of knowledge, seems to indicate that such a thing is impossible with one exception (See Descartes’ meditations) and that in all other cases there is always room for doubt. If that is the case, how can proofs exist, as they should be things by which we attain absolute certainty?
Proofs do exist, but you have to keep in mind that these proofs are derived in the context of a certain framework. Such a framework assumes basic rules and basic truths, from which more truths are derived. We call this framework a formal system (or a logic(al) system). More formally, we say that a formal system has a deductive system, consisting of the basic truths (axioms) and the basic rules (rules of inference). The formal system also has a formal language.
Mathematics as an example of a formal system
This may sound vague, so let’s just take the best example: mathematics. Mathematics is a formal system. Mathematics has a language: it has symbols (e.g. x), numbers (e.g. 1), and operators (e.g. +) and grammar in which these components can occur (e.g. 1+2=3, but not =12+=). Note that 1+4=6 is a mathematical statement, even though it is untrue (which can be proven!) – analogous to this is that “I eat ideas until I am born.” is a grammatically correct sentence, even though a non-sensical one. Mathematics also has a deductive system. This deductive system has axioms (ground truths) such as Peano’s axioms, which describe the ground truths for arithmetic. The deductive system also has inference rules; rules by which other truths can be derived from the ground truths. Note that the ground truths are assumed to be true; they can not be proven within the formal system.
Chess as an example of a formal system
A different and perhaps more appreciable example of a formal system is a game like chess. Chess has a language: these are not symbols like in mathematics, but the chess pieces themselves, and the playing board. The axioms correspond to the starting positions of the pieces. It also has rules for what movements are allowed for what pieces. A configuration of chess pieces can be said to be “grammatically correct” if it can be reached using the movement rules for the various chess pieces. If a configuration is found that can not be reached using the rules for chess, you can say that it is not a chess configuration, just like we can say that =12+= is not a mathematical statement. In this regard chess puzzles are completely equivalent to mathematical problems. Chess being a formal system is the reason a chess game can be described with a string of coded chess notations, and the reason why computers can play chess.
Back to the weird statements people make. When you read that somebody has “proven that God (does not) exist(s)”, you should immediately think the following things:
- This person is talking about proof, so this person is using a formal system.
- In this formal system, “God” is a formally defined concept
- In this formal system, “existence” is a formally defined concept or attribute for formally defined concepts
- Using the deductive system of the formal system, this person has shown that “God” has the attribute “existence”
But of course, that is never the case. These people confuse the context of the formal system with the context every-day life: e.g. the “God” concept within the formal system with something that exists outside of that formal system. When you are not talking mathematics or logic, chances are small your use of the word ‘proof’ is correct. That also means that somebody who is trying to convince you that God exists, you must not ask him to “prove it”
Evidence never yields certainty, but does not require a formal system
Evidence is very different from proof. Whereas proof gives you certainty about something within a formal system, evidence can never give you any certainty. It only assigns more certainty of the truth to that which it is evidence of. If there is a lot of evidence in favour of a particular idea, and little or no evidence to suggest the opposite, we should assign a large certainty that that idea is true. David Hume communicates this idea concisely in An Enquiry Concerning Human Understanding when he writes “A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence”.
Scientific evidence
In a pursuit of understanding the universe, we are quickly moved toward scientific evidence. Scientific evidence is evidence for a scientific concept, and which is in accordance with scientific requirement. Eyewitness testimony is considered important evidence in court, but it is of no value in the scientific community, for reasons of possible bias and the shortcomings of human perception. Therefore, eyewitness testimony is not scientific evidence. This is largely understood, but that it can only pertain to a scientific concept is often forgotten. How often have you heard atheists demand for scientific evidence for God? I even asked for this myself, until I better understood the concepts I am trying to explain in this article.
“Scientific evidence for God” implies that “God” is a scientific concept. This is certainly possible, but depends entirely on what “God” means. I have never seen a clear definition of God, but I do often encounter attributes of this “God”. One of these attributes is omnipotence: the ability to do everything. There are various degrees of omnipotence that are argued over by theologians, but I’ll overlook this for the sake of clarity. I ask you: if God can do anything, what then can count as scientific evidence of God? The answer is either everything or nothing. In both cases, we can learn nothing at all. Omnipotence is an attribute that the domain of science can not deal with. If God has this attribute, then there can exist no scientific evidence for God, and it is therefore ignorant to ask for it.
Recommendations
So what to do? In short, this article argues that if people want to prove God’s existence, they must first define what “God” and “existence” are within a particular formal system. You can safely disregard any so-called proofs that do not explicitly offer this information. I have also argued that there can exist no scientific evidence for any being that is omnipotent. You can safely disregard any so-called scientific evidence for omnipotent beings. What are we left with? That is something for theists to solve. It seems that “God” is such an obscure concept that, if it possibly exists, it bears little to no resemblance to the entities described in various holy books. Until new information is released, I shall remain an unimpressed non-theist.
The Antichristian Phenomenon



November 6th, 2009 at 5:26 pm - Edit
I would agree. How about those who don't? How about those who will say that certainty is possible outside of a formal system? When you challenge them they'll tell you that they don't subscribe to your ground rules. Revelation (or "inspiration") can provide the same certainty, they'll insist. Then you're faced with the daunting challenge of making them accede to your fundamental assumptions about what certainty is and how we come to be certain.
BTW, how could you omit Carl Baugh from your poll? He's my favorite. Talk about an air of authority and certainty! So scholarly sounding and yet so whacked!
November 6th, 2009 at 7:49 pm - Edit
Yes, it would be a problem if they object to my fundamental assumptions. But I simply won't accept revelation. They can whine all they want, I'm not going to accept it. I am quite sure I could find two cases of 'revealed truth' that are incompatible with each other. That's reason enough not to trust it.
Sorry about the poll, it's hopelessly outdated. I think it's been up there for more than a year. I guess we should change it to something new, soon. Thanks for the comment, though!
November 10th, 2009 at 1:33 am - Edit
I agree with your assumptions, and it is true that I have found many things supposedly "handed down from God" that are incompatible with the bible or other things claiming the same. At the end of the day I use my personal experiences, what I have seen and done. But I cannot expect you to believe anything because of that, my experiences are just that, mine.
I do find it sad that there is so much convolution in Christianity, I won't get into preaching about the whys and hows of it being this way but even if every Christian on earth was doing things wrong, that doesn't necessarily invalidate the religion, just its 'adherents'
And of course then we reach the wall of which you are on one side and I on the other, I believe in Gods revelation and guidance if I remain open to his will for my life and am not stubborn yada yada yada Christian stuff, you look at all those who claim this and yet contradict each other and (quite justly I must admit) have invalidated revelation because of this. In all my time as a Christian I have never known one person to be converted by crossing this wall. Its has always been a different way.
December 23rd, 2009 at 3:19 pm - Edit
Sorry for being a bit off-topic, but i thought you might like to see this:
"With “Math and the Bible,” Dr. Keister is breaking entirely new ground; for no one, to our knowledge, has ever before attempted to base arithmetic on the Bible." http://www.trinityfoundation.org/journal.php?id=5…
It's sad, just sad, when you consider what was going on in India at the same time.
December 30th, 2009 at 3:07 pm - Edit
[...] And of course there is no proof, as I have previously written and explained that proofs only exist in formal systems. Personally, I think a lot of people who identify themselves as agnostics because they are [...]
January 28th, 2010 at 9:36 pm - Edit
Thanks for one more awesome post. Keep up the good work.
January 29th, 2010 at 1:59 pm - Edit
“There is no such thing as proof in the context of every-day life”.
Really? Do you have proof of that? Otherwise your entire post fails to meet the criteria set by your opening statement…For example…reading/responding to posts on this website is part of my “Every-Day Life”. And since there’s no such thing as proof in that context then there is no proof that anything you’ve said is correct.